Choosing a line?

Misti · 07-09-2008, 02:26 PM

So, how do you go about choosing the perfect line around the race track? What is the best way to know, or how do you decide where you want to put the bike?

Misti

ONEvcs · 07-09-2008, 02:33 PM

I'm going to skip this one for now...

Jetbdude · 07-09-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEvcs

I'm going to skip this one for now...

ND4SPD · 07-09-2008, 02:40 PM

Find someone familiar with the track and follow them.

Heavy-Dee · 07-09-2008, 03:02 PM

Hey Misti. Seriously, why do you do this?

bwhip · 07-09-2008, 03:24 PM

Using the Whole Track

Misti · 07-09-2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavy-Dee

Hey Misti. Seriously, why do you do this?

Because I love riding and racing and coaching and I want to improve my abilities any way I can. Because I love a good discussion and I enjoy talking about riding techniques, especially when I'm not riding or traveling and I have time on my hands. Because I like to hear other people's opinions on riding and see what works for them or what doesn't, because I can learn from others and maybe pass on some good advice, and because I love touching base with people all over the world that have similar passions and interests that I do.

Isn't this what a forum is about? Asking questions, stimulating conversation, meeting people, learning?

Misti

Heavy-Dee · 07-09-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misti

Because I love riding and racing and coaching and I want to improve my abilities any way I can. Because I love a good discussion and I enjoy talking about riding techniques, especially when I'm not riding or traveling and I have time on my hands. Because I like to hear other people's opinions on riding and see what works for them or what doesn't, because I can learn from others and maybe pass on some good advice, and because I love touching base with people all over the world that have similar passions and interests that I do.

Isn't this what a forum is about? Asking questions, stimulating conversation, meeting people, learning?

Misti

Not this one.

This one's for talking about everything BUT motorcycles. Duh!

<dripping w/ sarcasm/>

TornadoB8 · 07-09-2008, 04:07 PM

I try to pick the line that gets me through the quickest. But depends on if it's a single turn, the first in a series of turns, the last turn before the straight, etc. It also depends on whether I'm trying to make a pass. If I'm trying to pass on the brakes I come in a little more shallow or on the inside. If I'm planning a pass on the exit I may try to apex it a little later and concentrate on my drive. All depends on how well I know the track and the racers I'm sharing it with.

MotoVegas · 07-09-2008, 04:18 PM

Hmmm, I guess that IS the question isn't it? And, I don't race, but merely ride track so the following is coming from that perspective; so for me its some strange combination of the following:

- watching/following other riders who are clearly better than me (which is usually quite a few);
- looking for the "rubber" on the track; i.e. the dark areas
- getting a feel where my bike (via physical forces) "wants" to go, (going along whatever path that allows me to keep momentum at a maximum as I finish a turn) as I start to pick up speed going around the track;
- in my head looking, after looking at a track map, connecting each turn to the next with what appears to be the "straightest" way;
- if possible do a "track walk" prior to riding the track to help me formulate a pre-riding concept of the look, and feel of the track.

Meh, that's all I've got.

CBRVFR · 07-09-2008, 06:41 PM

I get a track map, study it, and apply what I learned at the Kevin Schwantz Suzuki School. It dovetails nicely with the MCADX magazine article that Bwhip wrote and references in the thread above. There's very little BS, mystery, or magic about it. It's physics and discipline..

After every session, I go back to the map and run it through in my head until I'm sure I have a handle on the actual line based on factors like track condition, and a plan.

Then I go out and have fun.

Actually, I'm sure I witnessed the best line ever around a track last year at Miller. I don't know what that instructor said, but it worked - He left the track with a very attractive lady...

phobe · 07-09-2008, 07:00 PM

I try to find the line that allows me to carry the most speed into the next turn.

ONEvcs · 07-09-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I try to find the line that allows me to carry the most speed into the next turn.

Yeap, that's exactly what I "try" to do.

Mojave954 · 07-09-2008, 10:32 PM

Attempt to use the technique of using the whole track. Sometimes this irks faster riders. Just tell them, "use it as passing practice".

Some people on green bikes and green leathers taught me this tech up here at wsir...

bwhip · 07-09-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misti

Because I love riding and racing and coaching and I want to improve my abilities any way I can. Because I love a good discussion and I enjoy talking about riding techniques, especially when I'm not riding or traveling and I have time on my hands. Because I like to hear other people's opinions on riding and see what works for them or what doesn't, because I can learn from others and maybe pass on some good advice, and because I love touching base with people all over the world that have similar passions and interests that I do.

Isn't this what a forum is about? Asking questions, stimulating conversation, meeting people, learning?

Misti

Great answer, and thanks for giving us stuff to think about (and debate).

ptlcb1 · 07-10-2008, 12:22 AM

Hey Misti,
Just checked out your website. Congrats to you on all that you have done so far and all that you will do in the future!

YOU GO GURL! I learned lines from the guys that were the fastest at the track. I talked to them, and they did not mind telling me once they realized I was not in any of the same races as they were! lol I also watched them, and how I did this, benefited me the most. I would volunteer as a corner worker. By doing this, you can see exactly where they are coming into, thru and out of corners. In the corners that I was not so confident in, were the ones that I would work. That has helped me tremendously. I have a lightweight bike, so I was never on the track with the fast guys on the bigger bikes. Corner working did sacrifice some riding time, but learning what I did by watching up close, was well worth it!

Misti · 07-10-2008, 11:43 AM

A lot of responses here say that the best line is the one that gets them around the track the quickest (or in the straightest line). This is always a goal of mine while racing or qualifying not only for the fact that I'm looking for speed, but also because a good line tends to reduce mistakes and get me around the corner with less lean angle and less chance of crashing.

So, say you follow a fast guy around the track, or study a map to figure out a good line, how do you then remember it the next time around, or how do you replicate that same line, time after time?

Misti

luvtolean · 07-10-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misti

So, say you follow a fast guy around the track, or study a map to figure out a good line, how do you then remember it the next time around, or how do you replicate that same line, time after time?

Misti

Brake at the same cone every-time of course, unless there's a sneaky Frenchman around...then you just brake when you see Elvis.

CBR929RE · 07-10-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Brake at the same cone every-time of course, unless there's a sneaky Frenchman around...then you just brake when you see Elvis.

is he before or after God?

Shenders1 · 07-10-2008, 02:36 PM

I usually just follow someone I trust through the corner, like JetBdude or OneVCS.

Seriously, some nice person used to paint little squares on the tarmac at Grattan, and all you had to do was connect the dots. I found this method pretty helpful.

ONEvcs · 07-10-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shenders1

I usually just follow someone I trust through the corner, like JetBdude or OneVCS.

Seriously, some nice person used to paint little squares on the tarmac at Grattan, and all you had to do was connect the dots. I found this method pretty helpful.

If you're on a dirt bike, following me might shave a few minutes off your lap times.

The only added bonus to following JBD is that he's a camera whore so you're bound to show up on some video or other...

Purpdust · 07-10-2008, 03:04 PM

I try to use peripheral targets and imagine where the apex is if it is not marked. At first it was hard to use the peripheral vision and not target fixate but with some help I was able to develop it. The other thing that I constantly say to myself in the helmet is, to looks as far ahead as possible. This allows for smoother lines and a better awareness of the surroundings. After hitting the apex (or close to it) I smoothly accelerate and decrease my lean angle. This pushes the bike to the other side of the track. If I am perpendicular to the road well before the edge of the track, I will try to correct it by, accelerating quicker or correcting the Apex. (This only applies if the race line takes you to the edge)

On a side note, I still find myself over braking for the turns, especially the fast ones. Because of this I am running neutral throttle for a longer period of time. To correct this I just need more seat time to get my sensation of speed up.

Hammer · 07-10-2008, 08:10 PM

If I am going to a new track, I first watch a few videos of the track from trackdays and them look at a track map and try to figure out a fast line through. I am not one to pick up a track fast, some have said they can learn a track in a 2 sessions........it takes me about a half a day of practice to even feel comfortable out on a new to me track. Now at the track if possible I will walk the track and visualize a line around there as well as look for pavement issues. The first session I take it easy out there and forget the videos, map and the walk.....I do pay attention to oether peoples lines, but I just get familiar with the layout as it is totally different in person as it has looked in vids and paper maps. After that first session I try and start putting together a route. After I have some sort of route/plan I try and work on a few turns a session till I get it down pat.

NorthernRR · 07-10-2008, 09:44 PM

A lot of the time I will try to decide if it is more beneficial for me to enter a corner faster and loose some of my drive or enter slower and gain a drive(entry and exit corners)
Depending on traffic and track conditions this normally works pretty well.

As for doing it time and time again, I tend to trail brake and use my brakes to "setup" for a corner, I am finding it to be much easier to carry more speed in to corners and modulate the amount of brake pressure I am using rather than trying to find that extra bit by knocking off too much speed and then trying to compensate by using HP to "cheat"

Pretty much what spencers showed us when I was there in the spring. I feel SO much more comfy now on the bike and I am finding that my lap times are reflecting it. Good training helps SO much.

ptlcb1 · 07-11-2008, 12:16 AM

I do not use cones as a brake marker, because they may not be there on the next lap. I find something permanent. Something that I know is going to be there lap after lap, all day. An irregularity in the pavement, or that big tractor tire at the end of the guardrail, on the inside of turn 1 at Grattan.

The key to finding a fast line is to have a good foundation at the beginning to the day, however you decide to do that. Whether by a track map or another rider. Find a line that is comfortable for you, then fine tune it throughout the day. Brake deeper, turn in later, get on the gas sooner, as you progress thru the day.

Misti · 07-11-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer

If I am going to a new track, I first watch a few videos of the track from trackdays and them look at a track map and try to figure out a fast line through. I am not one to pick up a track fast, some have said they can learn a track in a 2 sessions........it takes me about a half a day of practice to even feel comfortable out on a new to me track. Now at the track if possible I will walk the track and visualize a line around there as well as look for pavement issues. The first session I take it easy out there and forget the videos, map and the walk....

07-09-2008, 02:26 PM	#1
Misti Join Date: 07-19-2007 Bike(s): Kawasaki ZX6R Posts: 61	Choosing a line? So, how do you go about choosing the perfect line around the race track? What is the best way to know, or how do you decide where you want to put the bike? Misti __________________ www.superbikeschool.com www.mistihurst.com "Leap and the net will appear!"

07-09-2008, 02:40 PM	#4
ND4SPD I'm BATMAN!!! Join Date: 12-12-2006 Bike(s): Trek Posts: 8,137 Images: 25	Find someone familiar with the track and follow them. __________________ "This is your life - are you who you want to be?" Learn all you need to know about Mac OS X

07-09-2008, 03:02 PM	#5
Heavy-Dee The Murph Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 31 Bike(s): 2004 GSXR 600 Posts: 2,703	Hey Misti. Seriously, why do you do this? __________________ Epic Fail

07-09-2008, 03:24 PM	#6
bwhip Every ride a gift... Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: Idaho, USA Bike(s): 1098S-SXV550-849-Ruckus Posts: 3,938	Using the Whole Track __________________ Seamus is awesome. Seriously. My Gallery

07-09-2008, 04:07 PM	#9
TornadoB8 Join Date: 12-18-2006 Location: KC Age: 44 Bike(s): 2005 600RR Posts: 943	I try to pick the line that gets me through the quickest. But depends on if it's a single turn, the first in a series of turns, the last turn before the straight, etc. It also depends on whether I'm trying to make a pass. If I'm trying to pass on the brakes I come in a little more shallow or on the inside. If I'm planning a pass on the exit I may try to apex it a little later and concentrate on my drive. All depends on how well I know the track and the racers I'm sharing it with. __________________ CCS#27 Dunlop, Vortex, Vesrah, Silkolene

07-09-2008, 02:33 PM	#2
ONEvcs Bull Fighter Join Date: 12-18-2006 Location: Ft. Worth Age: 40 Bike(s): '05CBR1000RR. Posts: 2,502 Images: 99	I'm going to skip this one for now...

07-09-2008, 04:18 PM	#10
MotoVegas Join Date: 01-03-2007 Location: Las Vegas Age: 38 Bike(s): ZX-10R & HD Ultra Classic Posts: 894	Hmmm, I guess that IS the question isn't it? And, I don't race, but merely ride track so the following is coming from that perspective; so for me its some strange combination of the following: - watching/following other riders who are clearly better than me (which is usually quite a few); - looking for the "rubber" on the track; i.e. the dark areas - getting a feel where my bike (via physical forces) "wants" to go, (going along whatever path that allows me to keep momentum at a maximum as I finish a turn) as I start to pick up speed going around the track; - in my head looking, after looking at a track map, connecting each turn to the next with what appears to be the "straightest" way; - if possible do a "track walk" prior to riding the track to help me formulate a pre-riding concept of the look, and feel of the track. Meh, that's all I've got. __________________ Enjoy my pics Enjoy my crash Enjoy riding with Whip and I at SMMR Last edited by MotoVegas; 07-09-2008 at 04:24 PM.

07-09-2008, 06:41 PM	#11
CBRVFR Godspeed, #20 Join Date: 12-13-2006 Age: 55 Bike(s): VFR750 SV650 TZ250 Posts: 5,097	I get a track map, study it, and apply what I learned at the Kevin Schwantz Suzuki School. It dovetails nicely with the MCADX magazine article that Bwhip wrote and references in the thread above. There's very little BS, mystery, or magic about it. It's physics and discipline.. After every session, I go back to the map and run it through in my head until I'm sure I have a handle on the actual line based on factors like track condition, and a plan. Then I go out and have fun. Actually, I'm sure I witnessed the best line ever around a track last year at Miller. I don't know what that instructor said, but it worked - He left the track with a very attractive lady... __________________ "...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass." Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly. Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant

07-09-2008, 07:00 PM	#12
phobe circa 1970 Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 26 Bike(s): 600RR, 125R Posts: 4,644	I try to find the line that allows me to carry the most speed into the next turn. __________________ Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc

07-09-2008, 10:32 PM	#14
Mojave954 GONE PLAID! Join Date: 12-18-2006 Bike(s): 08 FJR, 08 R 1200 GS Posts: 906	Attempt to use the technique of using the whole track. Sometimes this irks faster riders. Just tell them, "use it as passing practice". Some people on green bikes and green leathers taught me this tech up here at wsir...

07-10-2008, 12:22 AM	#16
ptlcb1 Join Date: 05-24-2008 Location: Michigan Age: 43 Bike(s): HONDA CB-1 Posts: 26	Hey Misti, Just checked out your website. Congrats to you on all that you have done so far and all that you will do in the future! YOU GO GURL! I learned lines from the guys that were the fastest at the track. I talked to them, and they did not mind telling me once they realized I was not in any of the same races as they were! lol I also watched them, and how I did this, benefited me the most. I would volunteer as a corner worker. By doing this, you can see exactly where they are coming into, thru and out of corners. In the corners that I was not so confident in, were the ones that I would work. That has helped me tremendously. I have a lightweight bike, so I was never on the track with the fast guys on the bigger bikes. Corner working did sacrifice some riding time, but learning what I did by watching up close, was well worth it!

07-10-2008, 11:43 AM	#17
Misti Join Date: 07-19-2007 Bike(s): Kawasaki ZX6R Posts: 61	A lot of responses here say that the best line is the one that gets them around the track the quickest (or in the straightest line). This is always a goal of mine while racing or qualifying not only for the fact that I'm looking for speed, but also because a good line tends to reduce mistakes and get me around the corner with less lean angle and less chance of crashing. So, say you follow a fast guy around the track, or study a map to figure out a good line, how do you then remember it the next time around, or how do you replicate that same line, time after time? Misti __________________ www.superbikeschool.com www.mistihurst.com "Leap and the net will appear!"

07-10-2008, 02:36 PM	#20
Shenders1 2 Cylinders, 4 Valves, No Waiting Join Date: 01-14-2007 Location: South Lyon, MI Age: 43 Bike(s): Ducati HM Posts: 971	I usually just follow someone I trust through the corner, like JetBdude or OneVCS. Seriously, some nice person used to paint little squares on the tarmac at Grattan, and all you had to do was connect the dots. I found this method pretty helpful.

07-10-2008, 03:04 PM	#22
Purpdust Join Date: 12-19-2006 Location: AB-Canada/Rome Italy Age: 33 Bike(s): gsxr 750 Posts: 1,450	I try to use peripheral targets and imagine where the apex is if it is not marked. At first it was hard to use the peripheral vision and not target fixate but with some help I was able to develop it. The other thing that I constantly say to myself in the helmet is, to looks as far ahead as possible. This allows for smoother lines and a better awareness of the surroundings. After hitting the apex (or close to it) I smoothly accelerate and decrease my lean angle. This pushes the bike to the other side of the track. If I am perpendicular to the road well before the edge of the track, I will try to correct it by, accelerating quicker or correcting the Apex. (This only applies if the race line takes you to the edge) On a side note, I still find myself over braking for the turns, especially the fast ones. Because of this I am running neutral throttle for a longer period of time. To correct this I just need more seat time to get my sensation of speed up. __________________ GSXR 750 - Track CRF450X - Dirt CRF100F - Soon to be a Mini Motard

07-10-2008, 08:10 PM	#23
Hammer For Sale Join Date: 12-17-2006 Location: Indiana Age: 39 Bike(s): 05 Suzuki 600 Posts: 5,018 Images: 12	If I am going to a new track, I first watch a few videos of the track from trackdays and them look at a track map and try to figure out a fast line through. I am not one to pick up a track fast, some have said they can learn a track in a 2 sessions........it takes me about a half a day of practice to even feel comfortable out on a new to me track. Now at the track if possible I will walk the track and visualize a line around there as well as look for pavement issues. The first session I take it easy out there and forget the videos, map and the walk.....I do pay attention to oether peoples lines, but I just get familiar with the layout as it is totally different in person as it has looked in vids and paper maps. After that first session I try and start putting together a route. After I have some sort of route/plan I try and work on a few turns a session till I get it down pat. __________________ SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS

07-10-2008, 09:44 PM	#24
NorthernRR Join Date: 12-18-2006 Age: 28 Bike(s): 1KRR, VFR, CRF450R, EX500 Posts: 1,428	A lot of the time I will try to decide if it is more beneficial for me to enter a corner faster and loose some of my drive or enter slower and gain a drive(entry and exit corners) Depending on traffic and track conditions this normally works pretty well. As for doing it time and time again, I tend to trail brake and use my brakes to "setup" for a corner, I am finding it to be much easier to carry more speed in to corners and modulate the amount of brake pressure I am using rather than trying to find that extra bit by knocking off too much speed and then trying to compensate by using HP to "cheat" Pretty much what spencers showed us when I was there in the spring. I feel SO much more comfy now on the bike and I am finding that my lap times are reflecting it. Good training helps SO much. __________________ See you at Indy

07-11-2008, 12:16 AM	#25
ptlcb1 Join Date: 05-24-2008 Location: Michigan Age: 43 Bike(s): HONDA CB-1 Posts: 26	I do not use cones as a brake marker, because they may not be there on the next lap. I find something permanent. Something that I know is going to be there lap after lap, all day. An irregularity in the pavement, or that big tractor tire at the end of the guardrail, on the inside of turn 1 at Grattan. The key to finding a fast line is to have a good foundation at the beginning to the day, however you decide to do that. Whether by a track map or another rider. Find a line that is comfortable for you, then fine tune it throughout the day. Brake deeper, turn in later, get on the gas sooner, as you progress thru the day. Last edited by ptlcb1; 07-11-2008 at 12:39 AM.