Baketech

I don't think it goes far or deep enough, but STT now requires oil fill/drain/filter safety wiring on Advanced group bikes...

Clipped from the STT website:

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HondaGalToo

Yeah, they had several instances last year where someone's drain plug let loose. I don't know what group, though. Most of the other orgs that require safety wiring only require in in the Advanced Group as well. I'd think a plug could fall out of any bike in any group. I think for track day riding, having those 3 items wired, along with antifreeze removal, is sufficient, but it should be required in all groups. Problem is, it would keep a lot of newbies from trying out the track if they had to do all of that.

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Hammer

The rules for bikes on track have been weak in past years. If you are in advanced I believe it should be mandatory for full safety wire along with case covers for both advanced and intermediate classes. Also the tech inspections are a joke, " yep nice day (grabs throttle, looks at the rear tire and slaps sticker on the shield) Ride safe" That is about all it is anymore. If the tech inspectors would actually look at the bikes they might catch some of that shit.

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RedRider

Check out STT's two new formats...


ALL-in-TWO(tm) is our new two-group format which accommodates all three skill levels, Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. Two groups are available, Sport & Supersport.
Sport: Novice and low to mid level Intermediates. This group will still have classroom sessions for Novice riders and Track Coaches but the on-track format will be less restrictive.
Supersport: Mid to upper Intermediates and Advanced. Each group receives 30-minutes of track time each hour. This is a great way to maximize your track time.
Passing Rules: Sport Group: Straights and outside of turns with a six-foot safety zone.
Supersport Group: Safe passing allowed anyplace on the track with a six-foot safety zone.

Max-Time(tm) format accommodates Intermediate and Advanced riders in an “open track” combined format. These events will start with a 15-minute session for each group to allow riders to warm up and then switch to an open-track format where you may come and go as you please. IMPORTANT: The Max-TimeTM format is exclusively for experienced “I” and “A” group riders.

Baketech

I suppose it's tough to strike a good balance...for example, I don't believe there should be a safety wire requirement for Novice classes, but then you get into an issue of how do you bump up a group yadda yadda...

Aside from the safety issues, there are the uncomfortable considerations of building a business that run amongst all this...so I don't think it's really obvious what the best way forward is.

However, I certainly think this basic amount of safety wiring should have been an Advanced group requirement long before now...

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HondaGalToo

Yet another good reason to ride with NESBA exclusively this year. Since STT allows you to self-assign, how many of the I group participants are going to say they are "lower level" and attend the correct session? Interesting...

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SheepOfBlue

Not any different than the two group format that was run at Miller when I was there, except they offered no instruction class to speak of. I consider myself a mid-pack intermediate (maybe a wool more at Barber since it is home). At Miller I was in the "A" group and did not see that as a problem.

The biggest thing I have seen as a safety/enjoyment issue of all the groups I have ridden with is traffic density and control rider effort. I have ridden with STT, NESBA, Ohlins, Rogue(STT), Curvechasers, McAdx Days, Curvechasers, Miller Open Day, Cycle Options and Apex. Density of riders is the biggest factor which can be controlled by control riders, track marshalls and number of riders. Yes, there are rules I think are more important and others that are less. Yes, in the organizations I have ridden with there is a difference on rules, organization and enforcement. But if everyone is jammed up the odds of someone doing something bad and hurting others goes up. If you dump oil it is terrible but if you do it in a pack it can be disastrous to many.

I see the bump in rules in STT a good thing but I think Hammer's rules would be impractical and drive people away in droves. That in turn means no more track day org (they have to make money or at least break even). Track riding is a high risk sport and while rules help save us to draconian is the same as what 'normal' people would like, no more riding.

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RedRider

The typical disparity in speeds and skills among the 3 groups in STT will lead to an interesting mix of riders in these new formats...

abtech

no comment

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JH41

Sheep,

out of the big clubs, who do you prefer and why?

When I ran with NESBA last year I noticed a major difference in rider speed within the I and B groups. I'm sure thats the case in most orgs though.


I will probably try some smaller track clubs that are sprouting up this year, in hopes that it will be less crowded.

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SheepOfBlue

By big groups I assume you mean STT vs NESBA.

I lean slightly towards STT.

I think STT has more structure in the novice group and while the classes are great for the first couple of times it would get old fast. Here I give STT the edge for novice the first time or two out because of the class. After that I give the edge to NESBA as the control riders seem much more proactive and personlized. Just before you are ready to move I give the edge to STT as the NESBA passing rules are VERY restrictive in NESBA.

In Intermediate STT passing rules are much more open (especially at Baa-rber) with not a lot of control rider interaction unless requested. NESBA you need to get waved by a control rider and if you are slower they can be a pain unless you jam up on them. At a faster pace getting waved through is not a big problem. One good thing on the control is you get fewer large packs as they control the flow a bit more. So in NESBA intermediate when you are just moved up the control riders can be a bit of a pain but make you have a more even pace. As you pick up they are a impedement. As you get past mid pack speed they become somewhat transparent. They are very proactive on feedback. STT is more open in intermediate at all levels which I prefer since I am free range. But the feedback from control riders must be requested (not all bad) and I find it less useful. Initially the open environment could be more intimidating but I never saw it as an issue.

NESBA is the only org to ever ban passenger sheep so they are the sheephaters. I have more folks I know that ride STT partly due to the Rogue connections in the south.

All that said this is based on the way things are run in the southern districts and I have membership in both. Other peoples experiences have varied. I ride NESBA as a target of opportunity or because friends are going with most events so far with STT.

That said, riding Putnam with the smaller events is always cool largely because at a minimum Hammer tends to show and sometimes the rest of the Yankees. I was pretty nuetral on Apex but would put them as very loose and open, again the company was excellant as was the track. I will try a couple of southern events with smaller groups this year. The event at Road Atlanta in May will be interesting as I expect a bunch of rogue folks and generally they are FAST as is the track, great folks though. You cannot beat McAdx with Abtech if you tried for a ton of reasons.

Hope that was useful.

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HondaGalToo

I mostly agree with Sheep, having ridden with both. I've never ridden with either group in the Southern division, but both sound good. Here in the Northeast, however, NESBA definitely gets my vote. It depends on what you're looking for, both have their pros and cons. I like the more restrictive rules in NESBA, I think it generally makes for a safer, much less aggravating day. I have never had an issue being held up behind control riders in the Intermediate group with NESBA. They are very proactive, and wave you by right away.

Also, I do agree that STT has the better Novice group as far as instruction goes. However, this can be a detriment, too, as you can place yourself in whatever group you want with STT. If you ride Novice, you are required to take the classroom everytime, and stay in your group with your coach. After sometimes as little as one trackday ever, some don't want to sit through the lectures/groups again and sign up for Intermediate for their very second trackday. You can imagine how that can go. Also, there is a great tendency for people to sign up in a group they don't belong in, because their group is full.

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“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.”
~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

SheepOfBlue

D'oh! I knew I forgot something. Good points on the assignment. I have had a couple of folks complain on not going from I to A with NESBA. However, one that I know and have seen ride should not be moved. By laptimes he is faster than me but his lines are a tad scary. I was easing along the last time out (goal was just to get back in the groove and get used to new h/w) and he came by at a decent pace. The things is that on the pass and for the next two turns he was out to the grass in odd places. So MAYBE they are correct not to move the person However I have also seen some in Intermediate at Barber that were a bit dangerous on speed and position at STT events. Of course that is a rough track for a new to intermediate person to come to and ride the first time.

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JH41

The lone event I did with Nesba was a good experience for me. Others that I was with had varying opinions, mostly because of the crowdedness and strict control rider passing rules in B group.

Some of my buddies got bumped down from I group to B group (which sucked for me) and I was riding by myself. I felt like the slowest guy but I was getting good feedback so I decided to not to bump myself down.

That said, I was getting passed on the inside ALOT. Which I eventually found as a good learning experience should I ever make it to an advanced group. At one point I had a bike on my left and right(not a typo; 3 across) through all of turn 1 at VIR South. Combined with the next few turns, it was quite a rush for me.

Again aside from that Nesba impressed. There is a new track opening up in Jersey so I may be testing a few new clubs just to get some track time there.

Your home track(barber) is my dream track and it will probably be through STT. I'm just worried since their Intermediate is rumored to be more chaotic than Nesba's I group.

-jh

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- I told my wife: 4 bikes or 4 girlfriends.... she's letting me keep the bikes

- Cars lean the wrong way in turns.

HondaGalToo

Yeah, NESBA says no inside passing in their I group, but that rule gets broken a lot. Doesn't bother me personally, as long as it's a clean pass and I don't get stuffed/run off the track. I used to ride with Reduc, and they allowed passing anywhere with a 6 ft buffer, so inside stuff doesn't necessarily bother me. STT's I group IS more chaotic than NESBA's I group, it's not a rumor in my book. I ride advanced with STT, Int with NESBA. My experience has been that NESBA's I group is like STT's A group.

__________________
“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.”
~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

JH41

I dont mind inside passing. Its when I am not expecting it(because of the rules), then theres a problem

I'm quite a professional at getting passed now. In fact, I enter every turn fully expecting to get stuffed by a control rider.

-jh

__________________
- I told my wife: 4 bikes or 4 girlfriends.... she's letting me keep the bikes

- Cars lean the wrong way in turns.

HondaGalToo

Haha, yeah, I'm good at getting passed, too! Although, I've never had a control rider at NESBA put a bad pass on me.

Have you ridden with TPM? I haven't tried them. I don't recall where you're located, but do seem to remember it may be the northeast.

__________________
“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.”
~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

JH41

TPM broke my cherry. We spoke about it before, I thought I saw you at a track day (or maybe it was HG2)

I'm in NY.

-jh

__________________
- I told my wife: 4 bikes or 4 girlfriends.... she's letting me keep the bikes

- Cars lean the wrong way in turns.

SheepOfBlue

STT allows passing on the inside at Barber (I think the only track) in Intermediate. NESBA does not. I think allowing inside passing at Barber makes it easier as there is a lot of right-left transistions If you ever plan a trip down be sure to post up as it is more fun with others around

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JH41

Definitely

thanks

-jh

__________________
- I told my wife: 4 bikes or 4 girlfriends.... she's letting me keep the bikes

- Cars lean the wrong way in turns.

RedRider

JH41, regardless of which trackday group you've ridden with, none of them can compare to our Grattan event for fun, safe, uncrowded riding with good people. Definitely put it on your calendar...you won't regret it!

HondaGalToo

Oh yeah, now I remember that, and it wasn't either one of us that you saw, as we've never ridden with TPM. Perhaps we'll catch up with you at a NESBA day this year...

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“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.”
~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

HondaGalToo

__________________
“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.”
~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

ND4SPD

Nice to see someone tightening rules. The organization I rode with recently did no tech. The staff had no clue what kind of equipment was going out on the track. They did make everyone pull up to the track entrance with their left glove off though to check wrist bands. I was baffled.

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