Crash

I’d like to take this one off the other “What are you” thread so that we don’t mess it up. This doesn’t even cover half of my questions, but it is the most in-depth and personal I think I’ve ever been on a web-site. I would like to start a healthy discussion please. I’d like no name calling, no belittling others and no criticisms please.

Yes I have a slightly skewed vision of the Catholic Church, due to the personal experiences I had with it as a kid through adulthood. Of the ten churches I’ve belonged to, 10 priests have been charged and 7 are currently in jail for pedophilia. Both of my high school’s headmasters have been accused and one was found guilty of negligence for allowing these things to occur at his school. As I’ve stated my current Cardinal, Mahoney is perhaps a bigger criminal than any of his subordinates for his role to cover everything up.

This isn’t a small sample I’m referring to, this isn’t something I apply to the whole church because one priest I knew as an alter boy touched my buddy. Every church I have belonged to has had a problem. This is California to Washington, from New Hampshire to Philly, from DC to South Carolina. I see a problem that can be traced to the fundamental beliefs of my religion.

While I attended The Citadel, we were required to sit through one service of each of the religions represented by our class. Some cadets just about exploded and burst into flames as they saw it as a crime to have to sit through a service that wasn’t their own. For me, it was a fantastic opportunity. I attend almost 20 separate services all of different faiths. From Catholic to Shinto, AME to Buddhist and let me tell you. We are all the same. The basics are the same no matter which religion you follow. This experience affirmed by beliefs and also helped me understand the different people around me and allowed me celebrate in the diverse nature of man.

I’m sorry I can’t just do the blind faith thing. I believe in the general goodness of the people around me. I believe that people like Rich perform “miracles” because they are genuinely good people. Good people working hard get what they deserve. They make their lives better; they make the lives of those around them better. It has nothing to do with faith and believing in God, it has to do with choices we make and the lives we choose to lead. We can put what ever face we want on it, we do good things because we decide to.

I have a family that runs on the outside of our tight circle of friends. They are dyed in the wool (no sheep puns) Christians and believe that Jesus will provide all they need. They don’t work, they continue to produce children they can not provide for. Every time we see them they can barely afford to feed their kids. They are choosing to not take action and responsibility and instead relying on the church and their friends. They are a burden and yet people keep enabling their behavior. Every time someone gives them money, or gives them some hand me downs, they praise Jesus and affirm his power through these “Miracles”. They never thank the people who actually provide. It’s B.S. they are choosing not to be responsible people, but dang they have a lot of faith.

Faith is nothing without work. Mother Teresa as an example. By her own admission, lost her faith because she said there is no way God would allow this much suffering to take place. She committed herself to the cause despite her lack of faith because she knew if she didn’t help then no-one would. She continued for 50 years after she lost her faith. What is that?

I do believe in God, but do I need to profess my faith in God to a specific doctrine? Do I have to follow man’s interpretation of what God wanted? Or can I simply live a good life, raise my children with care and compassion, be good to those around me, and take care of those who need it? Isn’t that the fundamental basis of almost all major world religions? God made us in his image, sure it took millions of years of evolution and the most advanced brain of any species for us to come to that conclusion, but he gave us free will. If I choose to blindly follow one religion over the others, am I truly using the greatest gift he/she/it gave us?

Again, I’m just lost and I continually seek answers to questions my own church doesn’t accept.

Let’s discuss

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jose_jimenez

You don't have to be a Catholic, or even label yourself a Christian, and you certainly don't have to profess your faith via a specific doctrine [IMO]. It sounds like you have had some experiences that threw you off the church. If you believe in your God, and yourself, well that should be all that matters to you. I've been in a similar situation explaining my 'faith' to people in my life. It's like you have to be like X or people just don't understand. Personally I pray, thank God for everything in my life, pray before my food, etc.......Catholic practices but I practice my own thing if that makes any sense. I volunteer at the homeless shelter downtown every year, and always on Christmas because I want to help other people when I can and because Jesus ran with lepers and whores I need to follow his example and not always stick to my own. Part of me knows also that the way I grew up wasn't too far from where these guys are now in that shelter. What I mean is that I do what I think I should be doing and do my best to change or alter the things I do not do right. I accept the Bible as a guideline but not the definitive law of God because man wrote it. I have issues with some of it so I focus more on prayer, giving up control to God of my life, and trying as best I can, and that is enough for me. I do believe you have to trust God 100% and do it blind, but that is just what I believe and my take on it, doesn't mean that is the way to do it for you. At the end of the day all you can do is ask God to answer the questions you have and be the best person you can be. It sounds like you are doing fine to me. Almost everyone in this life will try to get you to fit into some neat little box, and for some of us that just doesn't work. Find what works for you and roll with it.

Like you, I also see God's teachings in other faiths. I believe in JC myself and practice that but I see good in many of the world's faiths and I have no right to judge those faiths by saying they are wrong and what I believe is right. What I believe is what I believe. The strictest follower of any faith I have ever been around was this guy named Ivan, and he was a Muslim. Religiously he prayed the 5 times a day or whatever it is. He didn't cuss, didn't watch tv, didn't do a lot of things, real strict with his diet, etc.
To this day I have a lot of respect for him, and there is no damn way I can tell him what he is doing is wrong, or whatever. This world would be a lot better place if people and nations would quit insisting that their God is right, and blah, blah.

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Shenders1

Those are huge questions. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I can tell you what I believe.

First off - I believe that God loves us unconditionally. There's nothing we can do (or not do) that makes Him love us less or more. I think the feelings we have for our own young children help us understand this kind of love: They can disappoint us, even make us angry, but we'd still throw ourselves in front of a truck for them without a second thought.

My belief is that almost all religions/belief systems tend to get hung up, wrongly, on what behaviors are/are not acceptable to God - I'd include my own chosen religion in the guilty here. I do believe God has given us guidelines on how best to behave, but I don't think God intended that his professed followers go around using these as a litmus test. As evidence for this I'd cite Jesus behavior: He had very harsh words for the religious leaders of the time (and they had impeccable behavior), and he hung around with folks who were considered to have pretty poor behavior.

I seriously doubt God considers himself a member of any particular religion - He's way bigger than that.

I think free will is absolutely sacred to God. He provides us evidence, even engages in debates with us when we so desire (see Job, Jonah, Moses, etc), but lets us make up our own minds in the end, even if it means we decide against him. How would I handle it if my own child decided they wanted nothing to do with me? Not well, I suspect.

I believe God's primary goal is to get personally acquainted with each of us. Everything else in religion should be a byproduct.

proto

Quote:

Faith is nothing without work.

The Prostant Ethic. Sounds to me like you're in the wrong church.

jose_jimenez

Excellent post

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tigerblade

Pretty much in line with my personal beliefs.

seamus

Doesn't sound to me like you're lost, Crash. Sounds like you know exactly where you are and where you want to be.

When you take the time to evaluate yourself honestly (which it seems you're doing) and decide you are on the path that you believe He would want you to be on, continue to do that. If you're not on that path, change what you're doing to get on that path.

I don't believe there is a single path. God gave us free will knowing that we'd make mistakes enroute.

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RedRider

...and mine, too.

JohnnyDiablo

I beleive that God helps those who help themselves. Some people need to love a little less and try to improve thier job status. Thats what I do.... God willing

I disagree with the Pope about birth control.

For the record I am a Catholic even if I don't make it to church. No-one can take my faith from me.

I have done the miracle tour of Europe twice with my dad as he hoped for a cure for his cancer. I think it gave him more inner peace. He held out for 14 years instead of the usual 3 for multiple myloma.

I saw the uncorrupted body of saint Benadette in Lourdes, The host that turned to flesh in Italy. Smelled the greatest scent of roses from St Francis' grave, Stared at the Sun and watched it dance in Medgjugorgie along with seeing a partial apparition. I didnt go blind..

I still had a few moments of doubt about Jesus existing in life. I understand Mother Theresa's doubts.

phobe

+1... Just because your parents indoctrinated you into one particular church doens't mean that's your path.

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SheepOfBlue

I see a couple of things I would look at differently.

One Mother Teresa did not lose faith she lost the feeling of personal connection she once felt. Many never are blessed with this even for a moment. Despite the prolonged detachment she MAINTAINED faith

Second the people that you speak of are easy to criticize. Yes the lord provided for them. But he also provided good health and intelligence which had they applied THEY could have been the one dispensing aid and his good words. Instead they squandered his blessings and became a burden. I believe this is slothfulness, one of the seven deadly sins.

As for blind faith, there are some that would accuse me of this. However they do not know the hours and hours of thought and reading I have put in on this. There are others on this site which I have discussed this topic with whose research makes mine look like scanning a comic book. I do not think blind faith is beneficial put a lot of thought into and I believe you will come to where I am or beyond.

Sheep puns RULE

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phobe

"Blind Faith"... that seems redundant. What is faith? To suspend reason and believe something with no physical evidence? What makes that a virtue?

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Crash

Wow, see this is the kind of discussion I had been hoping for. In the years past, I've talked with my priests as well as other ministers from other faiths, and not one single thing added up to knowing God.

I believe that there are many paths to knowing him/her including science. Not one path is the most correct, the only people I believe are truly lost are those that pervert religion and use it as a tool of moral judgment and war. Christians in centuries past are guilty as charged, as are the other major religions.

I'm feeling a bit under the weather tonight so I won't carry-on too much more, but I really appreciate the honesty and openness here. I find it odd that I've found nothing over the years except cold shoulders for being a questioner, and here among those I've only met once or not all I can have a good discussion.

You guys are great and when my fever breaks I'll be back to carry this on. Thanks guys and gals

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phobe

You don't have to believe in a personal god to be in awe of the beauty and majesty of the universe.... or to love your neighbor. "God" can be a term you use to describe these things without any dogma, heaven, hell, rituals, etc... Sounds like you might be pantheistic. Stephen Hawking could be categorized as such... Einstein was as well.

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ND4SPD

No, you don't. But in Christianity there is only to be one God. The one that created the universe and everything in it.

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asiliat

I don't think every religion is the same. A lot of people think religion and the first thing they believe is "as long as you're doing good, or be good...." then something good will happen.

Yet, that is not the message Christians believe.

At the heart of it, no amount of goodness or loving will be good enough for God. You cannot win your way into Heaven by trying to do good. No one, no matter how pious they appear - can be good 24/7 until they die.

As for the Catholic faith, they do believe that Jesus Christ came to to die for our sins, and that by asking for forgiveness and accepting Him as our personal saviour, that is the requirement into Heaven.

However, there are several practices that I personally don't agree with.

Life-time celibacy is not something that's easily achieved. It is actually a gift from God to be devoid of sexual desire. The Bible does say that it is best to not marry and devote your life to Christ. However, because God knows we all have human desires, it is better to marry as to prevent one from sinning. So I think priests should have been able to marry from the start.

Secondly, I think the Catholic church look too much towards the Pope as a figure of Godly living. The Pope cannot forgive your sins. The Pope cannot bless you with any special powers. The Pope cannot get you into Heaven when you pray to him. That goes for all the bishops, cardinals, and the like. Yes, they can be respected, but they shouldn't be looked upon for examples.

I know that Christianity is not a popular topic in the sense that a lot of people think we're crazy, lunatic, and hypocritical.

I myself am a sinner, and continues to sin when I don't look to God for answers and guidance. The great thing about it though is that I can always go back to God for forgiveness, through the blood that was shed for me by Jesus Christ - and because I do have a personal relationship with Christ, I am assured that I will go into Heaven.

So why then does God allow so much suffering? I believe it's because of Free Will.

God can come down right now, and wipe the whole earth clean. He can decide that everyone will believe in Him and everyone must worship Him. We can turn into Christian zombies if that's what He wanted.

But He doesn't. Like any good father who allows their kids to explore their world, God also allows us to choose. We can live a life of sin, we can choose other non-real religions, or make up rules that will placate ourselves into thinking we're "good enough". If that's our desire, He won't stop us.

I know it's cliche, but how can use our human minds to fathom the whims of God? We don't even understand everything in the universe, how are we to know or dictate how God is to behave?

Are we so great that we can say, "I will behave this way, or I will follow these doctrines, and that will get me into Heaven because I think it's the right thing to do, and if 'God is real', He'll honour my methods."

It just doesn't work that way.

Look, the internet is a terrible way to discuss about faith. Everything I type may/will sound like I'm 1. delusional 2. Bible thumping nut 3. a jerk. However, that's not my intention.

Grab a copy of the "Alpha Course": Alpha Course DVD with Alpha Express - - Christianbook.com

(I am not affiliated with them, I just googled) and sit down and watch. It's a great introductory to Christianity presented in a fairly light yet thought-provoking way. I've shown it to several people and they enjoyed it, and it has brought out discussions that have been great for my non-Christian friends. Or better yet, seek out an "Alpha Course" in your area and make a point of going. The Alpha Express version is a cut down of the normal DVD. It runs only 20-30 minutes each time. I'm sure you can spare that.

phobe

They came up with a name for this: Secular Humanism.

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phobe

But who wants to spend eternity in a place where everyone is full of shit?

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asiliat

Haha, that's a great quote. It actually made me laugh.

I have faith in God that at the end, He'll be able to weed out the poop from the non-poop. If He can create life, I'm sure He'll be able to call out the BS'ers in the end.

bwhip

Although I've much to learn, I'm very comfortable with my faith, and am grateful for a growing understanding of God and my relationship to Him.

I am a strong believer in Jesus' words, "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also." I believe that Jesus came to show us what we could do - that through absolute faith in God's care, anything is possible. What some would refer to as miracles, I would consider the practical application of God's infinite love for his image and likeness, man.

Is this blind faith? For me it's completely the opposite. I've had too many concrete examples of God's care and provision in my life to believe anything else. Literally every aspect of my life has been blessed by my faith, including relationships, physical well-being and healing, parenting, career guidance and success - the list goes on and on. As I've told Sunday School students I've taught over the years, "Don't follow because someone tells you to. Follow because you can prove it. Follow because you see the results in your life."

I don't push my faith on others, but am happy to share if asked. All I know is, it works for me. It's not easy. The blessings are there, but need to be earned. I know I've got a lot to learn, and that there are lots of ways I need to show more commitment to my faith. Whenever I do, the blessings follow. It's definitely a full-time job!

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jose_jimenez

Blindly following to me means something else. It means "faith" because I cannot touch or see God, that I have to trust and put my faith in him. God doesn't knock on my door and appear in my doorway, yet he speaks to me through things in life. Blindly following God doesn't mean you just imagine things. It means that you put 100% faith in him. I believe I can feel his presence but believing in God is putting your trust in "faith", so in my words that is what I was trying to mean by saying that, giving my life to him, his will, not my own. Not that I feel like I need to explain this to you Phobe. Religion is much like politics, you are going to believe what you are going to believe before or after the discussion starts.

My avatar speaks from my faith

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