MotoGP Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? - Page 5

smoothrideronli · 01-14-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

Back on topic....

There seems to be an abundance of pointed criticism of TC from riders, fans and has-beens, but I have yet to read an educated, workable solution to tame it from any of those corners...

The floor is open fellas....

I dont think there needs to be a solution...these bikes make well over 200hp and as technology progresses to allow bikes to make this power, technology should progress to allow riders to harness it...what are they going to say next...the brakes are two powerful, we should go back to stopping with our feet...

Baketech · 01-15-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

That Ernest Hemingway - always shooting his mouth off.

Nicely done....

jose_jimenez · 01-15-2008, 12:03 PM

This is an interview in the latest issue of Cycle News. It was done on the eve of Barros's last GP in 2007. I have typed up all the relevant questions and what not pertaining to this subject. It's a decent read.

Obiously electronics take away from the rider's skill.

Quote:

I think so. Take now for example, the traction control. Now you can just pull the throttle and the electronics
do everything. So... I think the future in MotoGp should be changed a little, the electronics limited a little more,
like Formula One. In the future, I don't know when, the electronics will become too important and kill the rider.
So we must change something.

Has that already happened?

Quote:

Already started, yes. I was out of MotoGP for one year last year, and I have a different bike now, but I can tell
you that the electronics from 2005 to right now is really a big step. And it continues like this.... the
electronics, each day, develop. I believe soon the organization must do something.

Isn't it natural progress?

Quote:

But I look at F1: What they do now basically, just turn left and right, and open throttle and brake. The gears
change automatically. The drivers do almost nothing. If they want to try a different way, they can try one
different tire. They should take away traction control. You see the tire spinning, is more spectacular. I know
it is slower, but it is more fun for everybody.
It doesn't mean the rider is not important, just.... the percentage. That is changing, the electronics.
You will see less mechanics, more electronic guys.

As a rider who has raced both, do you still miss the old 500 two-strokes?

Quote:

I prefer four-stroke - you have much more fun. Especially at the beginning of the four-strokes: spinning, sliding
the corners. The connection was good, the power delivery was good. But now the electronics are starting to eat
that. No more spinning. It's fun, but it's not like at the beginning. Should we continue like that....this is
the worry.

Safety is much better now. What's the biggest change - tire development, or the move to four-strokes?

Quote:

Now it's much more safe. The bike is not so difficult. The electronics help a lot with this. The rider makes
a mistake, the electronics react and help you. So it is more difficult to crash right now. But you still have
highside crashes. The problems is not 100-percent broken.
In 2005 in MotoGP, we didn't have traction control, or only just starting to use it. You see a lot of
spinning. Was not so bad without traction control. I am a very sensitive rider, so for me is okay. Maybe for
some riders, it's dangerous. Like last year in Superbike I had zero traction control, and nothing for engine braking.
Like a standard streetbike. It's difficult, yes, more technical yes. But I think is more...it makes the difference
in riders more clear.

Did you try this year's Ducati with it switched off?

Quote:

Yes. You can ride it. Slowly. A little bit slower. But if you compare my data with Casey and Loris [on the factory
bikes], I use it much more open. Less traction control, less engine-brake control. Everything is less for me, so when
I ride I can feel more. Casey uses a lot of electronics. He has confidence, because he believes this is normal.
I tried so, but for me... so for 125 riders, it's more easy. No comparison with the 500. That took a long time
to reach the front level.

MotoVegas · 01-15-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Isn't it natural progress?

Quote:
...
...You see the tire spinning, is more spectacular. I know it is slower, but it is more fun for everybody....

And the basic, fundamental issue is highlighted here. And this further gives credence to my point that this so-called issue can't be "won" by any one involved. Why? Because it boils down to "what do you want from premier class racing?" A show? Or the advancement of technology to end up in the bikes we all ride.

Do we really want the top bikes and races in the world to be "slower"? Well, again, depends on what each of YOU consider racing. And what does that mean? It means, it's a subjective question. And no matter how hard one tries to "quantify" and "qualify" the anti-TC movement... one cannot get around the subjectivity of the issue.

But as I've said a billion times, MotoGP is a business. And if the perceived boggie man called "TC" is taking down any aspect of that business... change will come. For good, or ill (depending on your viewpoint of course).

gt702 · 01-15-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Still doesn't explain how the systems exclusively benefit riders "with less ability or skill".

I don't think anyone said "exclusively". Just like spell check ... for a good speller, it might catch 1 word in 1000; for the bad speller 1 in 10. In the end both get out with the same (similar) spelling scores. It is now down to who can turn the better phrase ... but the gap is narrower, which is what allows the lesser riders get closer to the front runners who are benefited less significantly by the TC

jose_jimenez · 01-15-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt702

... but the gap is narrower, which is what allows the lesser riders get closer to the front runners who are benefited less significantly by the TC

Shortest but most effective explanation I've seen yet.

phobe · 01-15-2008, 12:26 PM

Ok but I don't hear anyone complaining that the racing is getting too close.

gt702 · 01-15-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Shortest but most effective explanation I've seen yet.

Thanks. I'm trying to tone things down for the less technical here

MotoVegas · 01-15-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt702

but the gap is narrower, which is what allows the lesser riders get closer to the front runners who are benefited less significantly by the TC

And that is bad why? I thought the "anti-TC" movement wanted to see a show. With more riders in contention, even bad ones, doesn't that make a "race" more likely to break out. Or is it, they just want to root for their guy, that has superior talent.

I'm not trying to be rude, or disingenuous at all here... not by a long shot. But I really can't grasp the logic in the arguments that supposedly support cutting back electronics; frankly, from my point of view, most of it seems to be based on logical fallacy mixed in with subjective view points.

gt702 · 01-15-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoVegas

And that is bad why? I thought the "anti-TC" movement wanted to see a show. With more riders in contention, even bad ones, doesn't that make a "race" more likely to break out. Or is it, they just want to root for their guy, that has superior talent.

I guess the question comes down to: Do you want to see a race or a "show"?

It would be great to see both; where there is enough superior riders to do real head to head battle without the aid of gizmos that artificially prop up the "great but not superior" riders. Where the balance is of getting a good show without unduly advancing lesser riders is where I see the question.

I want a good show, but also want an incentive for riders to develop real racecraft and bike control.

It could be argued that providing the controls to make "bike control" a non-issue, that the riders can better focus on the "racecraft" side of "outsmarting" the other or gaining an advantage in another way. Seems to work for Nascar.

phobe · 01-15-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt702

I want a good show, but also want an incentive for riders to develop real racecraft and bike control.

.

Racecraft and bike control have changed. New generation of bikes, new generation of riders, new measuring stick.

phobe · 01-15-2008, 02:04 PM

In response to Barros:

Here are some motorsports where fans can see spinning tires:

Stock car racing
Motocross
Sprint cars
Drag racing
Ice racing
Rally racing
Club level roadracing

For fans that are interested in watching the fastest motorcycles in the World:

MotoGP

Baketech · 01-15-2008, 02:10 PM

You just don't "get it" do you....

Neither do I, so you are in good company...

gt702 · 01-15-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

You just don't "get it" do you....

No, not usually

evl_twn · 03-27-2008, 11:55 PM

Soup :: Hayden On Traction Control: "Shut It Off" :: 03-27-2008

luvtolean · 03-28-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evl_twn

Soup :: Hayden On Traction Control: "Shut It Off" :: 03-27-2008

A bit of honesty out of a rider, admitting he wants it out for his advantage. Nice.

jose_jimenez · 03-28-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evl_twn

Soup :: Hayden On Traction Control: "Shut It Off" :: 03-27-2008

phobe · 03-28-2008, 12:56 PM

A ban on rider aids would definitely favor Hayden's riding style.

ccwilli3 · 03-28-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

A ban on rider aids would definitely favor Hayden's riding style.

agreed on hayden. Rossi IS his own rider aid and I can't imagine him getting anything but faster if they go away...

CBR929RE · 03-28-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

agreed on hayden. Rossi IS his own rider aid and I can't imagine him getting anything but faster if they go away...

and some of the TC riders will get slower.

SheepOfBlue · 03-28-2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBR929RE

and some of the TC riders will get slower.

But dirt tracking will be more important

phobe · 03-28-2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

agreed on hayden. Rossi IS his own rider aid and I can't imagine him getting anything but faster if they go away...

Except that up until 07 he's always had the most sophisticated system available.

CBRVFR · 03-28-2008, 02:50 PM

I don't think the 2-strokes had any of that...

CBR929RE · 03-28-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheepOfBlue

01-15-2008, 12:26 PM	#127
phobe circa 1970 Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 26 Bike(s): 600RR, 125R Posts: 4,644	Ok but I don't hear anyone complaining that the racing is getting too close. __________________ Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc

01-15-2008, 02:04 PM	#132
phobe circa 1970 Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 26 Bike(s): 600RR, 125R Posts: 4,644	In response to Barros: Here are some motorsports where fans can see spinning tires: Stock car racing Motocross Sprint cars Drag racing Ice racing Rally racing Club level roadracing For fans that are interested in watching the fastest motorcycles in the World: MotoGP __________________ Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc

01-15-2008, 02:10 PM	#133
Baketech "Able was I ere I saw Elba..." Join Date: 12-14-2006 Bike(s): VFR800 - CBR929 - VFR800 Posts: 1,744	You just don't "get it" do you.... Neither do I, so you are in good company... __________________ "Ten times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres..."

03-27-2008, 11:55 PM	#135
evl_twn CAN CRUSHER Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: Central Illinois Age: 40 Bike(s): worm gear Posts: 1,658	Soup :: Hayden On Traction Control: "Shut It Off" :: 03-27-2008 __________________ Seamus is awesome

03-28-2008, 12:56 PM	#138
phobe circa 1970 Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 26 Bike(s): 600RR, 125R Posts: 4,644	A ban on rider aids would definitely favor Hayden's riding style. __________________ Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc

03-28-2008, 02:50 PM	#143
CBRVFR Godspeed, #20 Join Date: 12-13-2006 Age: 55 Bike(s): VFR750 SV650 TZ250 Posts: 5,098	I don't think the 2-strokes had any of that... __________________ "...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass." Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly. Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant