CBRVFR

Somebody correct me if this is wrong, but I think the riders (and drivers) are an integral part of development only insofar as they are able to explain in human terms the information that is accumulated as raw data. In other words, "the reason I can't hold the throttle open there on these tires is because the rear tire is stepping out, and I have to get it settled to take the next chicane."

Rossi, Alonso (F1), and these other self-promoting "geniuses" seem to get a lot of credit from their rabid fans that properly belongs to the engineers, IMO. They're not exactly like Dan Gurney or Carrol Shelby out there, who were able to drive the car into the garage and make a better part for it, evaluate and repeat..

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jose_jimenez

His only problems was motor this year and grip, and it's funny to listen to statements like that. Could you not see the power disparity at Qatar? Hayden even said in an interview last month that Rossi was riding that bike at 100% and there was nothing more ANYONE could do on it, period. That is from a fellow rider, not Rossi. I think the quote he said was that Rossi was riding the wheels off of it trying to get to the front.

And it wasn't long ago that he left for Yamaha to prove that the rider is the difference. So his statements this year regarding all this stuff isn't from left field really, he has been saying the same thing for years. I don't think he is anti electronics, he like others, thinks it's becoming entirely too important, and by that I mean rider-aids. If they don't come to an agreement on who is going to take care of what meaning rider vs. laptop technician then how far will it go? How much more of the rider's job will become programmed so that it's done for them before the race even starts. Perhaps the veterans that have ridden liter or top level bikes for years will have to retire and let a new generation of Playstation playing motorcycle riders come into the class. Traction control is great to control wheelspin but IMO dumping the throttle 100% while your knee is still on the ground rounding a corner is lame. You take the human element out of this then it will lose its luster. This is what has happened in F1 and the very reason that they banned traction control. The driving function of the car, some/alot of it, just got transferred from computer to human imput via the driver.

I have seen Rossi do things on the track that I haven't seen anyone else do. Nobody else in the current field of riders can come from mid-pack and take positions like he can. He is the best in the field. He is a multi champion and like any multi champion people will constantly try to tear the guy apart. If he says something it gets put under a microscope, meanwhile other riders say the same things and it goes unnoticed. If Yamaha was so great before he got there to lead development and instruct the engineers in which direction to take, where were all the wins before he got there? I remember when he tested both engines for Yamaha, he pointed at the big bang and said this is the direction we need to go. The engineers build the bike and they deserve their credit and due, but a rider who can make the development decisions is invaluable.

From reading his comments it looks like he (Rossi) wants to prove yet again, that the rider is the difference. I think the challenge he is taking on right now is to regain his title, with the electronics dialed out as much as possible, and the riding in his hands, to prove himself once again. CBR you said he wouldn't do shit on the Yamaha when he left for them so your doubt about him goes back years. From my perspective Rossi tells it like it is, he isn't one to bullshit and he can ride a motorcycle as well as anyone ever has. I guess, to some, they won't believe that no matter what he does. 7 championships, near Agostini breaking records, guess some people will always think he is full of shit because they just don't like him.

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Shenders1

Burgess is clearly a big reason behind Rossi's success. But I think the riders ability to understand what the bike is doing and communicate it to the engineer is even more critical. Rossi was a phenom before he ever met Burgess.

I actually think a good rider (good at setup AND good at racecraft) paired with a mediocre engineer will still find a way to go fast, as long as he/she is persistant. A mediocre or non-motivated rider is out of luck even if he/she has the best engineer in the world.

my

I don't know if this is quite as true in F1 - I guess we'll see next year, eh?

CBRVFR

Good God, am I ever going to live that down? I predicted Hearns to be Leonard, too.

I think Burgess is the genius in the garage. Rossi is clearly the genius on the track might be the best ever. I don't dislike him, I just want someone else to beat him. Anyone. Except the robot. It's part of being an iconoclast, Booth. You can't leave one idol unbroken.

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jose_jimenez

Well just say you want someone to beat him then instead of all the other bullshit that flies around here about him. Comparing him to Alonso is a joke. Always trying to paint some bleak picture when it isn't true is buster.
Just say you tired of him being such a force in motorcycle racing.

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ND4SPD

Well that pretty much went out the window, didn't it?

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jose_jimenez

How so?

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smoothrideronli

By his statements about traction control, tires...etc...

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jose_jimenez

When the computers take hold of previous rider duties, it's a different story and that wasn't as large of a footprint on the 990's compared to the new 800's. Rossi even said himself this year that the rider making the difference has been reduced by this. He then said he is still going to try and make the difference, so no I don't think it went out the window. Like I said before, the other riders that have said these things this year garner 0 attention from this side of the pond.

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MotoVegas

Control Electronics coming? Hopefully Rossi can win this season so we won't have to roll back technology for his sake.

MOTOGP: Control electronics?, motorsport news, results, features, teams, drivers, updates

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CBRVFR

Rossi selects electronics as his excuse for 2008


It's notable that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding F1 humor site. Thanks, MotoGPnews.

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Baketech

Forums there are still a bit odd though. They seem to have a reasonably informed TC thread going on there being taken very seriously, yet it mentions nothing about GPS or slipper clutch management...

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jose_jimenez

Been keeping up with that one myself because of Pike's comments.

"The rider is still responsible for braking at the correct point, turning in at the correct point and selecting the correct gear but all acceleration duties are taken away from him."

"Riding with the current level of TC requires a completely different style of riding, the things you do to make the bike hold a line exiting the corner are the opposite of what you would do if you have control of the throttle."

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luvtolean

Reasonably being the key word....still, off the mark. Pike misses many facets with his comments for several technical reasons including those you mention.

Hey Pike....butterflies aren't the only way to throttle an engine.

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luvtolean

Also, I can't help but see the irony in the fact Yamaha's engine phasing traction control scheme was costing Rossi power...electronics aside...and had the engineers "undone" some of his traction control and gone to a 180º screamer, he'd have had more HP...

I think the more Rossi whines like this, the more he helps Honda, Suzuki and Ducati.

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Baketech

Or that Duc's superior TC system wasted less fuel, allowing them to tune for higher top end HP than the competitors...

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luvtolean

But...God forbid, we allow development on paths that make engines more fuel efficient!!!

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ND4SPD

Some comments from Motorcycle Daily readers on the issue:

Motorcycle Daily

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jose_jimenez

Troy Corser chimes in with his view from the Superbike world.


"It's got a little bit easier to go faster....There are riders out there will less ability or skill who can now be fast, because you don't need that finesse of touch - the electronics do that for you..... It's a bit like if you can't spell - your computer has spellcheck, so you can write things without mistakes and you come to rely on it.....

I don't rely on it, I ride the throttle like I would with a normal engine. That's why me and Nori have different settings. I go from shut to partially open to fully open; to 5% or 10% before I go to 100%. Nori goes from closed to fully open like a switch, and to be honest, that is why his traction control works more efficiently; it's what you're supposed to do. Trying to ease the throttle one can confuse the system and we struggle a little bit getting a setting for me....

I'd like to see it removed completely, I preferred it when the riders made the difference, and it's not just superbikes - I think there are MotoGP riders who would be in hospital if the bikes weren't as easy to ride as they are now. That's why more riders have caught the front-runners - it's not that the front group has slipped back; it's because the slower riders find it easier to go fast.

For sure it makes racing very close, since everyone has the same controls, tyres and similar horsepower, but it means it comes down to aggression. That is why the racing is getting so physical, because you haven't got more power or grip.

Everyone's at a level. It's like limited racing, as if you've got a speed restrictor. We can even control corner entry and engine braking, so the only place you can really make a difference is braking. It's the only remaining thing that is 100% down to rider finesse and feel, with no assistance."

Troy Corser (TopBike magazine, RSA)

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slickwill

He seems to think that it has made the racing closer, which seems to be opposite of the typical anti-traction control argument? I thought that the argument against traction control was that it had ruined the "racing" by giving advantage to only the couple riders who had the best electronics?

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luvtolean

Actually is, the argument is that Rossi didn't get the good shit last year and has whined like the little Biaggi he has become.

Er, something.

Troy got beat by his teammate and is making excuses. There's a fucking surprise.

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