MotoGP Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? - Page 2

Hammer · 11-07-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seamus

Probably would have helped immensely at Putnam last year though.

That was a bad plug wire I believe.

seamus · 11-07-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer

That was a bad plug wire I believe.

Yeah but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have sat on the ground dismantling electronics. Then again...

CBRVFR · 11-07-2007, 09:51 PM

I don't have a problem with the technology, I just wanted to take a more aggressive stand against the 'no carbs' lifestyle.

MotoVegas · 11-07-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

That's always the story, if we want to limit electronics so that we can see the skill of the human pilot that automatically means that we want to do it 1900's style? That is an extremist view and not what anyone is saying here. Another extremist view could be opposite of yours....that one day the bikes will just be controlled by a technician in the garage via rc control.

Have you seen a F1 race in a while? Well the newsflash is that they are banning TC and this will put more emphasis on the driver and the car with much less computerized control. It's going to be a better sport for it too.
IMHO what some of the racers and ex-racers are saying is to limit it. You want TC for your bike, cool, no problem by me. F1 is going to ban it but that doesn't mean they aren't going to continue to develop motors, develop chassis, suspension, etc. In MotoGP the electronics will dumb the deal down to where it won't matter as much who pilots it, compared to the past.

Dovi being 2.5 seconds off the pace at this stage doesn't really mean much as he just got on one of these things for the first time in his life. He has been riding smaller, less powerful, 2 strokes. He'll get faster but he isn't going to just jump on the deal for the first time and push it as far as it will go. This is what most racers do when they first get on a new machine.

Understood. But your argument too is based on nothing but subjectivity and not objectivity; much like my (obvious over exaggeration regarding 19th century bikes) is. But to be frank HOW do you stop "it" (btw, whatever "it" is; I reckon you mean progress by some hyper-subjective standard that can only be gleaned from a select few - like oracles of old). And why would we want to stop "it"? Because Rossi lost this year to some new kid on the block? Please.

Human beings will always push some envelope of speed and control be it on four wheels, two wheels or with wings. Perhaps when we are all old men and women, the bikes will have 500 hp, and do an average of 300+ miles per hour, that otherwise would not be possible without electronics; electronics that you are advocating we should kill in the cradle. I humbly disagree with this position. I prefer progress. It marches on, my friend. And our sport adapts.

Also, what exactly are you proposing? Artificial stop gaps that are based on what... nostalgia? Do we simply say "no traction control systems". And btw, what definition of "traction control system" do we implement? It's a slippery slope of subjectiveness.

Remember, this argument is always going on in the sport of racing. And, frankly, it always will. But also remember, there will always be some human that is better than some other human at controlling the instruments of our technology. It was true in the 19th century. It was true in the 20th century. It remains true now in the 21st century, and I'm willing to bet that it will continue to remain true; that some human beings are just plain better than other human beings at controlling our machines. There are less than 2 dozen men at the top of this sport... still a pretty elite club out of six+ billion of us on this planet. If electronics were, in fact, ruining racing, any j/o, including any of us on this board, could hop on those machines for no salary a year and turn the same times. Which, you and I both know isn't the case. Yet more proof, that elite-hyper-skilled human beings still dominate motorcycle racing and not, the electronics.

DoctorFell · 11-07-2007, 11:17 PM

From SuperbikePlanet.com:

Quote:

7 time F1 champ Michael Schumacher tested the Ducati MotoGP bike this week at Valencia. Incredibly, Schumacher's best lap was 1:37, only about three seconds from a competitive top ten lap time. This after Andrea Dovizioso said riding a MotoGP bike is easier than riding his 250.

Just because it was pertinent. Not 'cause I care either way. =|

SuperDave · 11-08-2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoVegas

There are less than 2 dozen men at the top of this sport... still a pretty elite club out of six+ billion of us on this planet.

But the number of winners is small.

And that's the problem.

Rossi's really, really good. We know that. Others are really good too.

If we go back in time, American dirt track is a great example from the 50's and 60's. Basically, there were twenty guys that could win the race. There was an equality about the machinery, set up, and the riders that made it a show rather than the parade that it is now.

Technology can be reined in through rules. It was done with tires this year, which IS a safety issue from the hardware stand point vs a software stand point.

MotoVegas · 11-08-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDave

But the number of winners is small.And that's the problem.Rossi's really, really good. We know that. Others are really good too.

Is that a problem? Because I don't see it as one. And it's not based on "the men" and is the "electronics"? Rossi DOMINATED this sport from 125s, 250s, 500s, then 990s. He did so even switching machines mid-stride! This year, his tires sucked. His bike sucked. And as a result, we hear quotes from him, like JJ posted... blah, I don't buy it. Sour grapes if you ask me.

I'll continue to enjoy watching Prototype racing for what it is... manufacturers pushing technology to its extreme. WSBK is available to watch if prototype racing doesn't fit your likes.

In the end this debate will rage on, no matter what any of us say here. The issue will rage on. No one will be "right". No one will be "wrong". Rather 2 sides of a coin in a constant state of arguing. Continually. And long after traction control is an issue and is settled at some point, some new innovation will eventually become the next hot button topic that is "ruining racing". (And I didn't even read Nostradamas' books to foresee this future!)

jose_jimenez · 11-08-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoVegas

Because Rossi lost this year to some new kid on the block? Please.

Human beings will always push some envelope of speed and control be it on four wheels, two wheels or with wings. Perhaps when we are all old men and women, the bikes will have 500 hp, and do an average of 300+ miles per hour, that otherwise would not be possible without electronics; electronics that you are advocating we should kill in the cradle. I humbly disagree with this position. I prefer progress. It marches on, my friend. And our sport adapts.

Also, what exactly are you proposing? Artificial stop gaps that are based on what... nostalgia? Do we simply say "no traction control systems". And btw, what definition of "traction control system" do we implement? It's a slippery slope of subjectiveness.

Remember, this argument is always going on in the sport of racing. And, frankly, it always will. But also remember, there will always be some human that is better than some other human at controlling the instruments of our technology. It was true in the 19th century. It was true in the 20th century. It remains true now in the 21st century, and I'm willing to bet that it will continue to remain true; that some human beings are just plain better than other human beings at controlling our machines. There are less than 2 dozen men at the top of this sport... still a pretty elite club out of six+ billion of us on this planet. If electronics were, in fact, ruining racing, any j/o, including any of us on this board, could hop on those machines for no salary a year and turn the same times. Which, you and I both know isn't the case. Yet more proof, that elite-hyper-skilled human beings still dominate motorcycle racing and not, the electronics.

We've been talking about this for 2-3 years, the electronics that is, it's not because Rossi lost. He lost last year and you didn't see the topic discussed in the racing media like it is this year. This is because journos, ex-racers, etc, have seen racers wfo the throttle before they even hit the apex and the electronics and TC sort it out. Please yourself.

Well your argument is great but F1 just banned it for some of the same reasons Rossi, Schwantz, Mamola, Dovi, and countless others have said.
Thank God they did. They also went to a control tire. F1 found a solution so they could do the same on 2 wheels.

It doesn't take as much talent to wfo the throttle like has been discussed, letting the electronics sort it out. If you want to act like limiting TC, LC, and such means stopping engine/chassis/suspension development that is your prerogative, but just the opposite of what is being discussed. Like I said before, there are a lot of riders that would rather see it done away with because they want more control of the bike. It's not like a couple of busters on the internet just came up with this shit.

jose_jimenez · 11-08-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoctorFell

From SuperbikePlanet.com: Just because it was pertinent. Not 'cause I care either way. =|

Very pertinent and speaks volumes about this subject.

luvtolean · 11-08-2007, 10:22 AM

How praytell, is F1 getting rid of "traction control"? How do they even define it? Do you have a link? I'm curious how they think they'll stop those very very clever race engineers in that series.

As a person with some knowledge of control systems, I don't think you'll do it with anything short of a spec ECU. Like the spec BOVs in turbo'd racing series.

Short of that, if I'm an engineer on a team with my own ECU to program, my shit will have traction control, no matter what some idiot puts in the rule book.

phobe · 11-08-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

...

It doesn't take as much talent to wfo the throttle like has been discussed, letting the electronics sort it out. If you want to act like limiting TC, LC, and such means stopping engine/chassis/suspension development that is your prerogative, but just the opposite of what is being discussed. Like I said before, there are a lot of riders that would rather see it done away with because they want more control of the bike. It's not like a couple of busters on the internet just came up with this shit.

Those teams are going to tune their rider aids to whatever setting gets them around the track fastest. If dialing out a little bit of TC does that with certain riders at certain tracks, I'm sure they're doing it. They aren't using rider aids to spite the riders and the viewers... they are trying to go faster and it is working. If spinning and sliding were the fastest way around the circuit then you'd see a lot more spinning and sliding.

bda116 · 11-08-2007, 10:48 AM

That's exactly what F1 is doing. There is basically a spec ECU for 2008 and 2009.
But they are also already discussing bringing it back in 2011.

luvtolean · 11-08-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bda116

That's exactly what F1 is doing. There is basically a spec ECU for 2008 and 2009.
But they are also already discussing bringing it back in 2011.

That is the only way you'll get even close to being able to enforce it.

I still think they'll figure out other stuff though.

bda116 · 11-08-2007, 10:54 AM

That's why they are discussing allowing it back in 2011, even with a spec ecu it will be hard to police. It is too easy to write code that disappears at the press of a button or flip of a switch - in car or in the pits.

That and it is stupid to ban it in the first place.

luvtolean · 11-08-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bda116

That's why they are discussing allowing it back in 2011, even with a spec ecu it will be hard to police. It is too easy to write code that disappears at the press of a button or flip of a switch - in car or in the pits.

That and it is stupid to ban it in the first place.

If people can add traction control to NASCARs and Sprint Cars-which don't even have a battery on board!, they'll sure the hell get it on the F1 stuff, or more relevant to this thread, MotoGP bikes.

When you have computer controls...all bets are off. Child's play.

luvtolean · 11-08-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDave

But the number of winners is small.

And that's the problem.

Rossi's really, really good. We know that. Others are really good too.

If we go back in time, American dirt track is a great example from the 50's and 60's. Basically, there were twenty guys that could win the race. There was an equality about the machinery, set up, and the riders that made it a show rather than the parade that it is now.

Technology can be reined in through rules. It was done with tires this year, which IS a safety issue from the hardware stand point vs a software stand point.

I don't like the comparison. American dirt track is a bare knuckle boxing match type race series. It's Sprint Cars on two wheels. Anyone that's been involved in circle dirt track racing of any kind, knows that is it's own very specific culture.

MotoGP is supposed to be F1 on two wheels.

Besides, I don't agree. We've had Yamaha-Rossi, Honda-Nicky, Ducati-Stoner, in the last three years. That's 3 different riders, on 3 different brands, on 2 tire makers, in 3 years. That is awesome!

jose_jimenez · 11-08-2007, 11:00 PM

Read another quote today.

Former WSBK champion Neil Hodgson found himself reportedly befuddled this year after he tested the latest generation Ducati MotoGP bike. Afterwards, Hodgson said anyone could ride a MotoGP bike today because of the way that traction control and other rider assistance devices have 'dumbed down' the job of a rider.

seamus · 11-08-2007, 11:09 PM

While I could care less about what traction control, ECU, electronic doodad is the latest in cool, I'm sure you could take any old-school rider, put him on the newest of manufacturer-spec one-off prototype GP bike and he'll talk about how easy it is to ride.

The technology, even just the amount of power being pulled from the engine alone, is increasing at an amazing rate.

An 800cc bike putting 200hp to the ground (traction control or not) was unheard of just 4 years ago. And that's just engine power management.

jose_jimenez · 11-09-2007, 11:38 AM

Well they aren't talking about the power of the bike that is easy Captain.
There are enough current and ex-racers they have said the same thing and I guess I'm going to listen to them more than motorcyclists on the internets. No offence.

CBR929RE · 11-09-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Well they aren't talking about the power of the bike that is easy Captain.
There are enough current and ex-racers they have said the same thing and I guess I'm going to listen to them more than motorcyclists on the internets. No offence.

but you're listening to guys who went from riding one 200+hp bike to another 200+hp bike. do you really expect them to say its really hard to ride it? those guys at their level can get on just about anything for a few laps and say its easy to ride. The difference comes when there is competition, is it easy to ride then?

coming from most of our points of view we'd get on that bike and probably crap our pants, even with traction control.

jose_jimenez · 11-09-2007, 01:25 PM

Exactly I'm listening to people who have the most experience on those types of machines. You think you know better than someone who has ridden a bunch of bikes at this level? Has anyone on this site even been on one? No.
If current riders and ex-racers and champions are saying the same thing, well I don't think they are all lying to us. If you want to think you know better or more than some guy that rides or rode in Gp's then by all means. More than a few of them have said we could ride these machines and they make note of the carbon brakes, and not to just whack the throttle open all the way, other than that yeah they say we could ride these things. Journos that get on them talk about how easy they are to ride.

CBR929RE · 11-09-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Exactly I'm listening to people who have the most experience on those types of machines. You think you know better than someone who has ridden a bunch of bikes at this level? Has anyone on this site even been on one? No.
If current riders and ex-racers and champions are

11-07-2007, 09:51 PM	#33
CBRVFR Godspeed, #20 Join Date: 12-13-2006 Age: 55 Bike(s): VFR750 SV650 TZ250 Posts: 5,098	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? I don't have a problem with the technology, I just wanted to take a more aggressive stand against the 'no carbs' lifestyle. __________________ "...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass." Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly. Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant

11-08-2007, 10:22 AM	#40
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 6,396	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? How praytell, is F1 getting rid of "traction control"? How do they even define it? Do you have a link? I'm curious how they think they'll stop those very very clever race engineers in that series. As a person with some knowledge of control systems, I don't think you'll do it with anything short of a spec ECU. Like the spec BOVs in turbo'd racing series. Short of that, if I'm an engineer on a team with my own ECU to program, my shit will have traction control, no matter what some idiot puts in the rule book. __________________ The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

11-08-2007, 10:48 AM	#42
bda116 Done. Join Date: 12-17-2006 Bike(s): . Posts: 2,113	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? That's exactly what F1 is doing. There is basically a spec ECU for 2008 and 2009. But they are also already discussing bringing it back in 2011. __________________ "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar M. Ahmad, founding chairman of CAIR.

11-08-2007, 10:54 AM	#44
bda116 Done. Join Date: 12-17-2006 Bike(s): . Posts: 2,113	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? That's why they are discussing allowing it back in 2011, even with a spec ecu it will be hard to police. It is too easy to write code that disappears at the press of a button or flip of a switch - in car or in the pits. That and it is stupid to ban it in the first place. __________________ "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar M. Ahmad, founding chairman of CAIR.

11-08-2007, 11:00 PM	#47
jose_jimenez Not Sure's Legal Representation Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 1,983	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? Read another quote today. Former WSBK champion Neil Hodgson found himself reportedly befuddled this year after he tested the latest generation Ducati MotoGP bike. Afterwards, Hodgson said anyone could ride a MotoGP bike today because of the way that traction control and other rider assistance devices have 'dumbed down' the job of a rider. __________________ http://www.bushslastday.com/

11-08-2007, 11:09 PM	#48
seamus is feelin alright Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: Rocket City Age: 34 Bike(s): 1KRR; VFR; FMX650 Posts: 5,546	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? While I could care less about what traction control, ECU, electronic doodad is the latest in cool, I'm sure you could take any old-school rider, put him on the newest of manufacturer-spec one-off prototype GP bike and he'll talk about how easy it is to ride. The technology, even just the amount of power being pulled from the engine alone, is increasing at an amazing rate. An 800cc bike putting 200hp to the ground (traction control or not) was unheard of just 4 years ago. And that's just engine power management. __________________ Ducit Amor Patriae Richard Herald, The Gentle Giant The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. --- Thucydides

11-09-2007, 11:38 AM	#49
jose_jimenez Not Sure's Legal Representation Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 1,983	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? Well they aren't talking about the power of the bike that is easy Captain. There are enough current and ex-racers they have said the same thing and I guess I'm going to listen to them more than motorcyclists on the internets. No offence. __________________ http://www.bushslastday.com/

11-09-2007, 01:25 PM	#51
jose_jimenez Not Sure's Legal Representation Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 1,983	Re: Still think electronics aren't the deal they are? Exactly I'm listening to people who have the most experience on those types of machines. You think you know better than someone who has ridden a bunch of bikes at this level? Has anyone on this site even been on one? No. If current riders and ex-racers and champions are saying the same thing, well I don't think they are all lying to us. If you want to think you know better or more than some guy that rides or rode in Gp's then by all means. More than a few of them have said we could ride these machines and they make note of the carbon brakes, and not to just whack the throttle open all the way, other than that yeah they say we could ride these things. Journos that get on them talk about how easy they are to ride. __________________ http://www.bushslastday.com/