MotoGP 2008 - Brno**Race SPOILER** - Page 2

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoVegas

Correct. Hence, my remark. However, only for the short term. Think if Bridgestone would have tossed the towel in while Michelin was eating their lunch just a few short years ago... would Bridgestone even have this product to produce for the race teams (and eventually the marketplace) to choose from? Obviously, no.

I agree but it's a little more complex than that. Michelin is just dropping the ball. Hayden was using an intermediate @ Laguna Seca. An intermediate on a dry track?

HRC, and especially the Puig/Pedrosa combination, aren't going to keep losing out seasons like this due to the tire mfr. A good example is Rossi. Had he not done what the geniuses around here bitched at him for doing, he wouldn't be leading the championship, wouldn't have a chance at the title this year, and it would be the '07 season all over again. Pedrosa was more outspoken last year regarding the tires and was going to switch as well but Fukui decided to stick with Michelin. This proved to be the wrong move as Michelin doesn't look like they are doing anything. The racks of tires they've brought to the last 2 races make them look like Dunlop in GP.

F1, WSBK, and many other series went to a control tire because of this very thing. I think the series would be better for it.

CBRVFR · 08-19-2008, 02:01 PM

The fact that he made the right choice and is the best motorcycle rider we've ever seen doesn't make him any less of a bitch in the way he approached the issue... not to mention that if the boot were on the other foot and Bridgestone were having these issues, I'd be laughing my ass off.

MotoVegas · 08-19-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

I agree but it's a little more complex than that. Michelin is just dropping the ball. Hayden was using an intermediate @ Laguna Seca. An intermediate on a dry track?

HRC, and especially the Puig/Pedrosa combination, aren't going to keep losing out seasons like this due to the tire mfr. A good example is Rossi. Had he not done what the geniuses around here bitched at him for doing, he wouldn't be leading the championship, wouldn't have a chance at the title this year, and it would be the '07 season all over again. Pedrosa was more outspoken last year regarding the tires and was going to switch as well but Fukui decided to stick with Michelin. This proved to be the wrong move as Michelin doesn't look like they are doing anything. The racks of tires they've brought to the last 2 races make them look like Dunlop in GP.

F1, WSBK, and many other series went to a control tire because of this very thing. I think the series would be better for it.

Honestly, I don't see how it’s more complicated. Sure the infinite minutia of details as how we are at the current crossroads are interesting and fascinating to grasp and understand but in no way makes the fundamental truism that over time competition increases innovation and monopoly stifles it.

Without competition of tires, Rossi would have no Bridgestone to ride on. And who knows who would be leading the championship on control tires (undoubtedly Rossi would be at the top of the field regardless of tires). Hence his insight into making the correct moves at the correct time (i.e. switching from Honda to Yami or to Michelin to Bridgestone) demonstrates the dynamics of competition at work and the advantage a wise customer (Rossi) can exploit when offered aforesaid choices. And combating his critics, wise choices he made indeed. Beautiful thing this competition stuff. In all its quirks and facets.

Nevertheless, the current issues of top teams and riders getting antsy because their current provider of tire is so much weaker than the competition is the basis for the individual reaction of "give ME Bridgestones, if that means control tires or not matters not as long as 'I' have them". Of course, Bridgestone took the top spot by demonstrating it had a superior product while developing that product in the shadow of Michelin dominance. The reaction should be for Michelin to work its tail off... not just by saying it will, but actually doing it. Perhaps with satellite teams and re-emerge (if they can out innovate Bridgestone) as the dominant force in GP. That, or cede its market position in motorcycle tires to Bridgestone.

And whether a control tire makes a race more interesting is at the heart of the very debate now isn't it? Short term gain over long term gain. The two, are very often, (in business) at odds with each other. In just two short years we have seen one tire manufacturer fall from grace to be dominated by another. Fortunes change so quick when the constant pressure of competition is ceaselessly on ones back. Could at the end of 2006 anyone predicted that Michelin would get so destroyed by Bridgestone in the coming seasons that in the matter of 1-2 seasons control tires in favor of BRIDGESTONE would be the talk of the MotoGP paddock? Amazing when you really think about it.

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

The fact that he made the right choice and is the best motorcycle rider we've ever seen doesn't make him any less of a bitch in the way he approached the issue... not to mention that if the boot were on the other foot and Bridgestone were having these issues, I'd be laughing my ass off.

He did what he had to do. And I don't see you making the same comments regarding Pedrosa as he was more outspoken than even Rossi last year.
Watch him switch next season if they don't go control tire.

Hearing all the Michelin guys bitch and moan the last 2 races, including Hayden, well I don't hear any about that either on here (And it's justified so that isn't a complaint). Some of the Michelin guys, especially Pedrosa are livid. Nice guy Hayden has made his comments too, especially about having to use an Intermediate. They are all pissed and watch the tire scramble at the end of this year because of it. As usual it's all Rossi's fault though

And apparently Rossi knows how to do his job good enough that he made the right decision so apparently he knows more than any of us. You might try to remember that Rossi, as well as the rest of them, risk their life on those tires. After 2 years of his tires failing him at certain circuits, he'd had enough, and was pissed off enough about it to do something about it instead of just sitting there and lose another season. His criticism last year is no different than the comments being made presently by Michelin riders. Each rider's post race comments were priceless post Brno.

You just hate Rossi so it must really get under your skin that he was right, again.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/18aug...ssisgamble.htm

bzwyatt · 08-19-2008, 02:48 PM

Nobody comments about Pedrosa because he is a bitch, whether he whines about the tires or not. Rossi isn't a bitch, that's why it stood out, see?

Rossi's The Doctor, he can get Bridgestone if he says he wants them. Anybody else... ?

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bzwyatt

Nobody comments about Pedrosa because he is a bitch, whether he whines about the tires or not. Rossi isn't a bitch, that's why it stood out, see?

Rossi's The Doctor, he can get Bridgestone if he says he wants them. Anybody else... ?

Pedrosa could have been on them or possibly both Repsol riders this year but Fukui said no, and opted to give Michelin another year.

ND4SPD · 08-19-2008, 02:54 PM

Doesn't change anything about Pedrosa though.

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoVegas

And whether a control tire makes a race more interesting is at the heart of the very debate now isn't it? Short term gain over long term gain. The two, are very often, (in business) at odds with each other. In just two short years we have seen one tire manufacturer fall from grace to be dominated by another. Fortunes change so quick when the constant pressure of competition is ceaselessly on ones back. Could at the end of 2006 anyone predicted that Michelin would get so destroyed by Bridgestone in the coming seasons that in the matter of 1-2 seasons control tires in favor of BRIDGESTONE would be the talk of the MotoGP paddock? Amazing when you really think about it.

I agree but the thing to keep in mind is that riders and factories don't want to wait a year, 2 years, etc, to be in competition. I mean how long should they lose, at the hands of a tire mfr, before they are able to switch tire companies? How long should they lose to appease the peanut gallery? They spend millions every year, and I doubt Honda, with its infinite power, is going to spend another year on a gamble that just isn't paying off.
In any series where control tires have been implemented, you just don't hear the tire bitching anymore.

Heavy-Dee · 08-19-2008, 02:58 PM

Pedrosa ain't no Rossi.

We DO call Pedrosa a bitch at every opportunity.

MotoVegas · 08-19-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

I agree but the thing to keep in mind is that riders and factories don't want to wait a year, 2 years, etc, to be in competition. I mean how long should they lose, at the hands of a tire mfr, before they are able to switch tire companies? How long should they lose to appease the peanut gallery? They spend millions every year, and I doubt Honda, with its infinite power, is going to spend another year on a gamble that just isn't paying off.
In any series where control tires have been implemented, you just don't hear the tire bitching anymore.

They should buy the better product. Like Rossi did. But not remove the *choice* of products from the field by way of a rule introduction, imho. Like the article you linked remarked, but for Honda's desire to "save face" they stayed on Michelins. And their teams have paid the price for thier masters "saving face".

A better mouse trap will always outsell as weaker one... unless the consumer is a stubborn brand loyal pita.

phobe · 08-19-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

He did what he had to do. And I don't see you making the same comments regarding Pedrosa as he was more outspoken than even Rossi last year.

Ya because Dave shows nothing but love for his favourite racer, Dani.

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 03:10 PM

I edited my post above with this link but I'll post it again to rub it in Dave's face

Rossi's Bridgestone Gamble Pays Off

CBRVFR · 08-19-2008, 03:12 PM

As I remember, Bridgestone didn't want to expand their customer base at all, and turned Rossi-Yamaha down. At that point, Rossi bitched to Dorna, who put their foot down to the extent that they told Bridgestone to put tires on Rossi's bike or there would be a spec tire this year or next. And it wouldn't be them.

Honda asked for the same consideration and were not given it. Whether Fukui claims to have stuck with Michelin this year for reasons of loyalty, convenience, competition or whatever, they weren't going to get tires with the same level of attention as Rossi and Stoner.

Michelin screwed their F1 customers in the same way a few years ago, and Bridgestone became the spec tire by default when Michelin withdrew from the series.

NO other rider would have had the leverage to get that tire. Rossi knew it and played everyone. Like a bitch.

Pedrosa... yeah, I stick up for that asshole all the time.

If they were all on the same make of bike with the same tires, Rossi would win 6 out of 10 races, at least. If he gets to have a tire company make him a custom tire, it's 8 out of 10. And that's largely due to his ability to speak the language of the tire engineers. So there's no aspect of this game that he doesn't excel in. But he's still a beeeeyootch!

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 03:29 PM

LMAO, actually Dorna told Bridgestone to provide Dani and Valentino tires for the 2008 season and Fukui withdrew.

ccwilli3 · 08-19-2008, 03:48 PM

Glad to see capirossi on the podium again.

CBRVFR · 08-19-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

LMAO, actually Dorna told Bridgestone to provide Dani and Valentino tires for the 2008 season and Fukui withdrew.

Yeah, we all read the same magazines. Which is why I wrote
they weren't going to get tires with the same level of attention as Rossi and Stoner. Kind of a Fukyu to Fukui.

And the main point, of course, is that Rossi had to get the fucking top management of the series to strongarm a tiremaker to comply with this nonsense, in order to make sure he got an advantage that he arguably didn't need.

seamus · 08-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

...I mean how long should they lose, at the hands of a tire mfr, before they are able to switch tire companies? How long should they lose to appease the peanut gallery?

The answer to that question is in the contract. You sign a contract with no "out clause" and you're forced to renegotiate and pay your way out or you wait until the contract ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

...In any series where control tires have been implemented, you just don't hear the tire bitching anymore.

So your point is to appease the whiners? That's not good business no matter where you are. They're not whining because the tires are unsafe, they're whining because they're losing. A poor team strategy has them losing and they're whining because they didn't see it coming and can't find a way to overcome it.

I don't like Pedrosa so I don't normally talk about him but this makes me want to punch him in the face because I like whiners even less.

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

And the main point, of course, is that Rossi had to get the fucking top management of the series to strongarm a tiremaker to comply with this nonsense, in order to make sure he got an advantage that he arguably didn't need.

If he isn't on Bridgestones this year he's not leading the championship, winning it, nada, zilch. It would have been 2007 all over again this year.

Actually it was Yamaha, because Rossi doesn't run any mfr contrary to your belief, that approached Bridgestone to purchase tires for the 2008 season, not get them for free, but to pay the same price as everyone else. This was where Ezpeleta and Dorna came into play. Like I said last year, if you are going to participate, as a tire mfr in the series, then you should be ready to provide tires to those teams that come to you with checks in hand. So it isn't nonsense, and he did need those tires if he wanted to compete for the championship. Marco Melandri beat every single Michelin shod bike at Brno, what does that tell you? You think Rossi of all people is going to sit back and lose for another year because you think he shouldn't be able to switch and Yamaha shouldn't be able to purchase tires from them? That's fantasy island there. This shit storm will start raining again soon as Michelin's dropping bombs and Repsol isn't going to stand for it.

jose_jimenez · 08-19-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seamus

So your point is to appease the whiners? That's not good business no matter where you are.

LMAO. It isn't appeasing any whiners. You lot are asking/telling a mfr, such as Yamaha, hey lose another season. They aren't going to do that, period. Watch what happens with Dani and Repsol in the offseason. You can't ask any of these teams to go into a season, knowing they are going to lose and don't have a shot at the title because of tires, not a chance in hell. Honda spends millions as does Yamaha and the rest of the mfr's. They aren't going to keep losing to make you happy, they've got heaps of money invested. They are going to do what they have to do to remain competitive. In this case, that means switching tire makes.

Like I said, you don't hear this whining from anyone in single tire series, it's moot pushing the attention back on the riders and machines as it should be. These factories aren't going to spend millions of dollars, and the sponsors aren't going to spend millions to lose just to make motorcyleaddicts.org members happy.

MotoVegas · 08-19-2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

These factories aren't going to spend millions of dollars, and the sponsors aren't going to spend millions to lose just to make motorcyleaddicts.org members happy.

Easy now. I think it was you that reminded me (rightfully I might add) to take it easy with the extreme hyperbole at one point in the TC debate; here you should follow your own advice. I don't think ANYONE on ANY internet forum ANYWHERE is under ANY illusion that ANY factory/series listens to jugheads like us who endlessly opine on random BS regarding the sport we all love. Rather, its nothing more than each of us (you, me and all the others) driveling on with opinions that matter to no one other than ourselves. Debate for the sake of it, and not delusions of grandeur that any of us labor under thinking someone of any "importance" is actually listening to any of our crap.

seamus · 08-19-2008, 08:49 PM

I'm not asking them to do anything. Part of racing is strategy and that goes all the way to signed contracts and multiyear deals. They did it legally so the answer to getting out of it should also be handled the same way.

Not with some pouting 5 year old temper tantrum on pit lane.

CBRVFR · 08-19-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Quote:

If he isn't on Bridgestones this year he's not leading the championship, winning it, nada, zilch. It would have been 2007 all over again this year.

Don't sell your boy short there - he'd probably have Michelin much closer to being on the plot, especially for the Yamaha. He is, in truth, a fucking genius at this shit. But I hope Stoner wins..

Quote:

Actually it was Yamaha, because Rossi doesn't run any mfr contrary to your belief, that approached Bridgestone to purchase tires for the 2008 season, not get them for free, but to pay the same price as everyone else. This was where Ezpeleta and Dorna came into play. Like I said last year, if you are going to participate, as a tire mfr in the series, then you should be ready to provide tires to those teams that come to you with checks in hand. So it isn't nonsense, and he did need those tires if he wanted to compete for the championship. Marco Melandri beat every single Michelin shod bike at Brno, what does that tell you? You think Rossi of all people is going to sit back and lose for another year because you think he shouldn't be able to switch and Yamaha shouldn't be able to purchase tires from them? That's fantasy island there. This shit storm will start raining again soon as Michelin's dropping bombs and Repsol isn't going to stand for it.

I disagree with you on a few points, but it's really conjecture on my part.. Seems to me that Rossi, not Yamaha - calls the shots in MotoGP because he's the franchise. They sell more of his MotoGP branded and licensed shit than anyone else's by a mile, he draws the fans, the TV and web audiences, etc. Honda has more resources than Yamaha, but neither HRC nor Puig nor Repsol nor Earl Frickin' Hayden had sufficient suction to get Dorna to threaten to upset the whole world order. If Pedrosa won the championship, the marketing department would have to have him killed.

I can't think of another rider that would send them into such a panic by threatening to quit and drive rally cars into trees.

08-19-2008, 02:01 PM	#32
CBRVFR Godspeed, #20 Join Date: 12-13-2006 Age: 55 Bike(s): VFR750 SV650 TZ250 Posts: 5,026	The fact that he made the right choice and is the best motorcycle rider we've ever seen doesn't make him any less of a bitch in the way he approached the issue... not to mention that if the boot were on the other foot and Bridgestone were having these issues, I'd be laughing my ass off. __________________ "...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass." Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly. Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant

08-19-2008, 02:48 PM	#35
bzwyatt Join Date: 07-14-2008 Location: Alhambra, CA Age: 27 Bike(s): '03 Z1000 Posts: 72	Nobody comments about Pedrosa because he is a bitch, whether he whines about the tires or not. Rossi isn't a bitch, that's why it stood out, see? Rossi's The Doctor, he can get Bridgestone if he says he wants them. Anybody else... ? __________________ Help keep Upper Big Tujunga clean; join Angeles Forest Motorcyclists here.

08-19-2008, 02:54 PM	#37
ND4SPD I'm BATMAN!!! Join Date: 12-12-2006 Bike(s): Trek Posts: 8,046 Images: 25	Doesn't change anything about Pedrosa though. __________________ "This is your life - are you who you want to be?" Learn all you need to know about Mac OS X

08-19-2008, 02:58 PM	#39
Heavy-Dee The Murph Join Date: 12-17-2006 Age: 31 Bike(s): 2004 GSXR 600 Posts: 2,691	Pedrosa ain't no Rossi. We DO call Pedrosa a bitch at every opportunity. __________________ Epic Fail

08-19-2008, 03:10 PM	#42
jose_jimenez Not Sure's Legal Representation Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 1,977	I edited my post above with this link but I'll post it again to rub it in Dave's face Rossi's Bridgestone Gamble Pays Off __________________ http://www.bushslastday.com/

08-19-2008, 03:12 PM	#43
CBRVFR Godspeed, #20 Join Date: 12-13-2006 Age: 55 Bike(s): VFR750 SV650 TZ250 Posts: 5,026	As I remember, Bridgestone didn't want to expand their customer base at all, and turned Rossi-Yamaha down. At that point, Rossi bitched to Dorna, who put their foot down to the extent that they told Bridgestone to put tires on Rossi's bike or there would be a spec tire this year or next. And it wouldn't be them. Honda asked for the same consideration and were not given it. Whether Fukui claims to have stuck with Michelin this year for reasons of loyalty, convenience, competition or whatever, they weren't going to get tires with the same level of attention as Rossi and Stoner. Michelin screwed their F1 customers in the same way a few years ago, and Bridgestone became the spec tire by default when Michelin withdrew from the series. NO other rider would have had the leverage to get that tire. Rossi knew it and played everyone. Like a bitch. Pedrosa... yeah, I stick up for that asshole all the time. If they were all on the same make of bike with the same tires, Rossi would win 6 out of 10 races, at least. If he gets to have a tire company make him a custom tire, it's 8 out of 10. And that's largely due to his ability to speak the language of the tire engineers. So there's no aspect of this game that he doesn't excel in. But he's still a beeeeyootch! __________________ "...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass." Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly. Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant Last edited by CBRVFR; 08-19-2008 at 03:18 PM.

08-19-2008, 03:29 PM	#44
jose_jimenez Not Sure's Legal Representation Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 1,977	LMAO, actually Dorna told Bridgestone to provide Dani and Valentino tires for the 2008 season and Fukui withdrew. __________________ http://www.bushslastday.com/

08-19-2008, 03:48 PM	#45
ccwilli3 having a laugh... Join Date: 12-18-2006 Age: 30 Bike(s): pps mod'd ohlins on a cbr Posts: 1,010	Glad to see capirossi on the podium again. __________________ Cleaver, a film by christopher moltisanti and carmine lupertazzi

08-19-2008, 08:49 PM	#51
seamus is feelin alright Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: Rocket City Age: 34 Bike(s): 1KRR; VFR; FMX650 Posts: 5,462	I'm not asking them to do anything. Part of racing is strategy and that goes all the way to signed contracts and multiyear deals. They did it legally so the answer to getting out of it should also be handled the same way. Not with some pouting 5 year old temper tantrum on pit lane. __________________ Ducit Amor Patriae Richard Herald, The Gentle Giant The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. --- Thucydides