New Homeland Security Bill

luvtolean · 08-03-2007, 11:29 AM

How do I just know my rights have yet again been shat on?

Quote:

Bush called it "the largest restructuring of our government since World War II"

From the peeps that brought us the TSA, that just doesn't sound good...

Bush signs homeland security bill - Yahoo! News

ccwilli3 · 08-06-2007, 10:57 AM

ok, so I'm a little late. I was coming to post this so you'd see it...

I would have just emailed it to you, but then THEY'D know...

jose_jimenez · 08-06-2007, 02:05 PM

Awesome! I just love everyone that voted for this guy. He says history will show he made all the right choices and decisions....I beg to differ.

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 02:28 PM

Too bad front running demos voted to go to war.

ccwilli3 · 08-06-2007, 03:31 PM

what ticks me off the most is specifically 'domestic' email surveillance was touted and mentioned.

he who gives up his freedom in exchange for security will get neither, and deserves neither...

A sad few days for freedom.

jose_jimenez · 08-06-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Too bad front running demos voted to go to war.

Fuk them all. Remember, despite what they vote for (and they voted for everything that the genius put in front of them for years) the dipshit is still the ring leader.

SheepOfBlue · 08-06-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

what ticks me off the most is specifically 'domestic' email surveillance was touted and mentioned.

he who gives up his freedom in exchange for security will get neither, and deserves neither...

A sad few days for freedom.

If you think your email was EVER secure step back from that keyboard

You can always encrypt it if you don't want anyone to see it. That is not illegal in the US (I believe it is in France though, so you move there with Johnny Dipp) The number of places an email runs through that a simple sniffer could read is HUGE. If you are on a cable modem I bet your neighbor could read your email without much effort.

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

what ticks me off the most is specifically 'domestic' email surveillance was touted and mentioned.

he who gives up his freedom in exchange for security will get neither, and deserves neither...

A sad few days for freedom.

If you want to keep it private don't type it up and don't talk about it over the phone. If you have to type it up, keep it on a computer that's not plugged into a network.

Email is plain text and not hard to intercept.

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose_jimenez

Fuk them all.

With few exceptions, no arguments here.

Quote:

...despite what they vote for (and they voted for everything that the genius put in front of them for years) the dipshit is still the ring leader.

Of the Repubs, I kind of agree. But not totally.

Hitlery voted for the war, and she seems to be running about as anti-Bush/republican/war platform as she feels she can.

She doesn't get a pass on that shit.

Oh wait...when a demo goes to war it's OK...how could I forget?

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

If you want to keep it private don't type it up and don't talk about it over the phone. If you have to type it up, keep it on a computer that's not plugged into a network.

Email is plain text and not hard to intercept.

That's bullshit.

The government doesn't need to read my damned mail. Or listen to my phone calls. That is my business. And there SHOULD be a reasonable expectation of privacy.

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 05:36 PM

That's like saying you can put a bag of candy out and not expect a 5yr old to go dig into it as soon as you put it down. If it's not encrypted it's out there for all to see. The honor system doesn't really exist anymore. Not on that scale.

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 05:41 PM

For the last 100+ years in the United States, a phone call was considered to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The government needed a warrant to use a phone conversation against a citizen. Until DHS, this was still basically the law of the land. (though in the old days, the operator may have been listening)

With e-mail, the government jumped at the opportunity to stop that kind of inconvenient nonsense, ie requiring a warrant to snoop on people, before it started.

Now, they've managed to convince the population for their safety it is just what you say, "out there" for anyone.

It's no easier to intercept mail than it was a phone call. Criminal techies are nothing new, and have always been able to hack systems.

All that has fundamentally changed is the intrusiveness of our government, and specific protections of the population.

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 06:02 PM

Yep, that's very true. But part of that comes from corporations bending over for the government. Corporations like AT&T. And then there's Google that wouldn't turn records over(the latest I heard anyway).

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 06:03 PM

I don't think that's it at all.

It's government doing what they all do...grabbing more and more power...for THEMSELVES.

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I don't think that's it at all.

It's government doing what they all do...grabbing more and more power...for THEMSELVES.

But if a company like AT&T says no, those are our private records and unless you have a specific reason to have A particular record(aka a warrant) you need to leave then what choice do they have but abide by the laws already out there. If someone gives them an inch they take a mile and there's surely a new law behind it to make sure that by the time somebody wakes up and realize what happened they're more or less stuck. I wonder if AT&T got a tax break out of their little spy deal...

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 06:16 PM

AT&T caved to government pressure. Not the other way around.

Maybe they resisted like a wet noodle, but they didn't propose giving this stuff to them, the government demanded it.

This country is WAY too quick at blaming "big companies" and not nearly quick enough to accept responsibility for what we and our elected government does.

It's a good set up though....you can't hurt a paper entity's feelings, and they don't fight back. But we and politicians do.

ccwilli3 · 08-06-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

That's bullshit.

The government doesn't need to read my damned mail. Or listen to my phone calls. That is my business. And there SHOULD be a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Exactly. The fact that anyone is openly okay or not concerned about this illustrates a lack of understanding of what is ultimately at stake here. Everyone knows that email can be read, intercepted, stopped, etc. Everyone knows that. But the fact that it can now be intercepted, read and collected for no other reason other than 'they can' is beyond total BS!

The police can't just stop you because they want to, or because you are riding a motorcycle and they don't like bikes, they have to have probable cause or a reason too. Shouldn't the same be expected of the rest of the government? The problem with this electronic surveillance is that they can keep up with this data forever!

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 06:34 PM

I'm not okay with it and I am concerned about it. The fact is that if you want to keep it private don't put it in an email or talk about it on the phone. I agree, we shouldn't have to. The problem is there's someone on the other end that thinks they don't have to stay out of your business, whether it's right or wrong. Do you leave your bike in your driveway and still expect it to be there the next morning or do you lock it up at night? Do you ever leave your car running while you run in to grab a gallon of milk from the grocery store and expect it to still be there when you come out?

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

Exactly. The fact that anyone is openly okay or not concerned about this illustrates a lack of understanding of what is ultimately at stake here. Everyone knows that email can be read, intercepted, stopped, etc. Everyone knows that. But the fact that it can now be intercepted, read and collected for no other reason other than 'they can' is beyond total BS!

The police can't just stop you because they want to, or because you are riding a motorcycle and they don't like bikes, they have to have probable cause or a reason too. Shouldn't the same be expected of the rest of the government? The problem with this electronic surveillance is that they can keep up with this data forever!

The real problem, is that anyone can be arrested for what they say on the phone, even if that info was obtained without a warrant.

This was a significant check on the government prying into our lives. Harvesting data on a person without the proper paper work meant the accused getting that evidence thrown out with a decent attorney. Getting a warrant took time and money. Thus, bogging down the system, and forcing the government to go after real problems only.

Now they can set up keyword harvesting tools, and use whatever data a machine indiscriminantly mines against a citizen.

ND4SPD · 08-06-2007, 06:53 PM

StorageMojo » MyLifeBits, NIMD, NSA and You. Or Rather, Us.

Here is another:
How the plotters slipped US net | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

Quote:

PGP inventor Phil Zimmermann thinks the penalty of politicians misunderstanding technology will be even more costly. "If we install blanket surveillance systems, it will mean the terrorists have won. The terrorists will have cost us our freedom."

luvtolean · 08-06-2007, 07:07 PM

I couldn't agree more.

The Patriot Act, TSA, DHS...these agencies and legislation are the trophies of terrorists.

They've done exactly what terrorists around the world hope to do, cause the government of the target country to irritate the population with sweeping responses to minor, though very public, acts.

Bin Laden didn't win when the towers fell, he won as these things went through Congress and the Pres signed them.

08-06-2007, 10:57 AM	#2
ccwilli3 a head like a f'ing orange Join Date: 12-18-2006 Location: Raleigh Age: 31 Bike(s): 06 fireblade Posts: 1,180	Re: New Homeland Security Bill ok, so I'm a little late. I was coming to post this so you'd see it... I would have just emailed it to you, but then THEY'D know...

08-06-2007, 02:05 PM	#3
jose_jimenez Banned Join Date: 01-05-2007 Bike(s): Hurricane Posts: 2,110	Re: New Homeland Security Bill Awesome! I just love everyone that voted for this guy. He says history will show he made all the right choices and decisions....I beg to differ.

08-06-2007, 02:28 PM	#4
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 8,546	Re: New Homeland Security Bill Too bad front running demos voted to go to war. __________________ You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

08-06-2007, 03:31 PM	#5
ccwilli3 a head like a f'ing orange Join Date: 12-18-2006 Location: Raleigh Age: 31 Bike(s): 06 fireblade Posts: 1,180	Re: New Homeland Security Bill what ticks me off the most is specifically 'domestic' email surveillance was touted and mentioned. he who gives up his freedom in exchange for security will get neither, and deserves neither... A sad few days for freedom.

08-06-2007, 05:36 PM	#11
ND4SPD Join Date: 12-12-2006 Location: Central SC Bike(s): '99 F4 Posts: 9,637 Images: 28	Re: New Homeland Security Bill That's like saying you can put a bag of candy out and not expect a 5yr old to go dig into it as soon as you put it down. If it's not encrypted it's out there for all to see. The honor system doesn't really exist anymore. Not on that scale. __________________ "This is your life - are you who you want to be?" Learn all you need to know about Mac OS X The Motorcycle Addict's Magazine - MCADXmag

08-06-2007, 05:41 PM	#12
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 8,546	Re: New Homeland Security Bill For the last 100+ years in the United States, a phone call was considered to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The government needed a warrant to use a phone conversation against a citizen. Until DHS, this was still basically the law of the land. (though in the old days, the operator may have been listening) With e-mail, the government jumped at the opportunity to stop that kind of inconvenient nonsense, ie requiring a warrant to snoop on people, before it started. Now, they've managed to convince the population for their safety it is just what you say, "out there" for anyone. It's no easier to intercept mail than it was a phone call. Criminal techies are nothing new, and have always been able to hack systems. All that has fundamentally changed is the intrusiveness of our government, and specific protections of the population. __________________ You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

08-06-2007, 06:02 PM	#13
ND4SPD Join Date: 12-12-2006 Location: Central SC Bike(s): '99 F4 Posts: 9,637 Images: 28	Re: New Homeland Security Bill Yep, that's very true. But part of that comes from corporations bending over for the government. Corporations like AT&T. And then there's Google that wouldn't turn records over(the latest I heard anyway). __________________ "This is your life - are you who you want to be?" Learn all you need to know about Mac OS X The Motorcycle Addict's Magazine - MCADXmag

08-06-2007, 06:03 PM	#14
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 8,546	Re: New Homeland Security Bill I don't think that's it at all. It's government doing what they all do...grabbing more and more power...for THEMSELVES. __________________ You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

08-06-2007, 06:16 PM	#16
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 8,546	Re: New Homeland Security Bill AT&T caved to government pressure. Not the other way around. Maybe they resisted like a wet noodle, but they didn't propose giving this stuff to them, the government demanded it. This country is WAY too quick at blaming "big companies" and not nearly quick enough to accept responsibility for what we and our elected government does. It's a good set up though....you can't hurt a paper entity's feelings, and they don't fight back. But we and politicians do. __________________ You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

08-06-2007, 06:34 PM	#18
ND4SPD Join Date: 12-12-2006 Location: Central SC Bike(s): '99 F4 Posts: 9,637 Images: 28	Re: New Homeland Security Bill I'm not okay with it and I am concerned about it. The fact is that if you want to keep it private don't put it in an email or talk about it on the phone. I agree, we shouldn't have to. The problem is there's someone on the other end that thinks they don't have to stay out of your business, whether it's right or wrong. Do you leave your bike in your driveway and still expect it to be there the next morning or do you lock it up at night? Do you ever leave your car running while you run in to grab a gallon of milk from the grocery store and expect it to still be there when you come out? __________________ "This is your life - are you who you want to be?" Learn all you need to know about Mac OS X The Motorcycle Addict's Magazine - MCADXmag

08-06-2007, 07:07 PM	#21
luvtolean Join Date: 12-13-2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Bike(s): 2008 BMW GS-A Posts: 8,546	Re: New Homeland Security Bill I couldn't agree more. The Patriot Act, TSA, DHS...these agencies and legislation are the trophies of terrorists. They've done exactly what terrorists around the world hope to do, cause the government of the target country to irritate the population with sweeping responses to minor, though very public, acts. Bin Laden didn't win when the towers fell, he won as these things went through Congress and the Pres signed them. __________________ You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

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