smoothrideronli

He says (I'm paraphrasing) Obama is not concerned about winning in Iraq...now it got me thinking (it happens)...what is considered winning? Since this is not the typical war, how will we know when we have won? when Osama is dead, when terrorist attacks are minimal in Iraq, when they have a functioning government? Opinions please.

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seamus

Two different wars.

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Ducit Amor Patriae

Richard Herald, The Gentle Giant

The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
--- Thucydides

smoothrideronli

Agreed...but I figured since it is a war on terror and he is the poster boy for terror it could be related...

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CBRVFR

When he defames his opponent's intentions and impugns his patriotism enough to cause enough uncertainty and fear to prevail in the election, then that's winning.

It's easier and more effective than debating the issues. Less elitist, too.

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"...the TV also never took away the screwdriver and shoved it up the repairman's ass."

Our own Mr.2nd Amendment, explaining the difference. Perfectly.

Rich Herald, the Gentle Giant

smoothrideronli

I meant what is the measuring stick for winning in Iraq.

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seamus

18 benchmarks and it's all over.

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Ducit Amor Patriae

Richard Herald, The Gentle Giant

The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
--- Thucydides

smoothrideronli

I read them and now the question is...can all of that be performed and troops still be withdrawn?

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Heavy-Dee

Is that all? Sheesh.

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Epic Fail

Purpdust

When Hell freezes over






On a serious note.

There are no Winners in War, only one side that benefited more than the other.



and no I am not quoting Obama

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CRF450X - Dirt
CRF100F - Soon to be a Mini Motard

luvtolean

Bullshit. There are winners and losers. The winners go home and get back to being citizens, losers get hung as war criminals. I'll agree everyone pays a price, but there is no doubt in war there is a side that is better to be on.

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

Bourne

What about the Israeli/Lebanese war from a couple of summer ago?

No clear cut victor there.

Bourne

The more important question, I think, is if we are "defeated", as that dastardly Obama wants, who racks up the W?

The Republicans?

luvtolean

Who said it's over?

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

Bourne

Wow, that was an epic cop out.

luvtolean

Not really.

If you want to talk about the battles, Israel clearly won.

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

smoothrideronli

So by that definition we can win the war by withdrawing??

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luvtolean

Interesting question.

Is it better for the US if we withdraw from any war?

In Vietnam we never lost a significant battle, but ultimately the strategic aim (Domino Theory essentially, if you believe McNamara) of the politicians was flawed.

Is it best to walk out when the mistakes in the "logic" of going to war are realized? Probably. Is that a win? I dunno, good question. Our leaders didn't end up hung. Our troops fared better than the enemy. Our country was not shot up.



Is withdrawing from a geopolitical war like Iraq a win? Not in my eyes.

I know for a fact the clear losers in that deal are Saddam (that war criminal thing again) and his minions however.

The Bush administration not having a policy of what to immediately do with their win was certainly not winning behavior.

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

Bourne

No, I'm talking about the war, which is also over.

Israel flattens Lebanon, killing over a thousand of its citizens, and completely destroying large chunks of its infrastructure while fighting an Iranian proxy that most Lebanese didn't like to begin with. Then Iran, through Hizbullah, showered the Lebanese people with money while helping them rebuild their homes and their infrastructure thereby spreading even more Iranian influence throughout the region.

Yeah buddy, what a victory!

Kind of reminds me of that opening scene from Team America. That was a "win" too.

Bourne

Again, I'd ask who would we be losing to in that case?

We babysat a civil war, and tried our best to thwart ethnic cleansing.

All that is pretty much over now, so who would "defeat" us?

smoothrideronli

Well what kind of win was it? Can one liken it to carjacking a car that is on fire...first you have to put the fire out...then you have to fix it...etc...who really wins the carjacker or the carjackee...(well definately not Saddam).

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luvtolean

But where would you rather have sat for that battle, Jerusalem or Beirut?

If the strategic aim of the war is geopolitical, and I believe it is, the only people left to defeat us are ourselves.

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

luvtolean

Eh? Try something else, I don't understand your analogy.

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The facility and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which are governments are most liable.- James Madison

seamus

Okay, where to start...

Is your question actually "can all that be performed and the troops still not be withdrawn?"

I posit that both sides won, it just depends on how you want to look at it.

That "war" started over the kidnapping of a couple of Israeli Soldiers. The insurgents, kidnappers, enemy, whatever you want to call them played their hand. What they didn't expect was that Israel would Hulk out and start laying waste to everything it saw in it's path. Psychologically, Israel won that point in that "whatever you want to call them" had to retreat all the way back to planning stages because they cannot afford to have the public against them. The public directly attributes the civilian death to the provocation and therefore, civilians would not have died if Israel wasn't provoked.

In the actual fighting, I think it was a draw. Unfortunately, by fighting to a draw, Israel lost. Again, it's a psychological loss. A "band of misfits" held the highly trained, technologically superior force and forced a draw.

The next move against Israel is going to be highly calculated and strategically planned to one up the gains made without causing the public to revolt. I predict the next flareup will start from a very subtle punch in the face that forces public opinion to remain strongly behind the aggressor.

In this type of warfare, much like in Vietnam, you can't count wins based on body count. America has proven that an attack and a toe-to-toe fight will not bode well for the challenger. However, we've also proven in the last couple decades, that a small portion of the "public" can drive support into the ground and cause enough infighting as to make us attempt to implode.

Who can defeat us? At this moment in time, anyone willing to follow the VietCong model for an indefinite time period without imploding themselves. As we (the military) finally learn the lessons we should have learned from Vietnam, that's very quickly changing though.

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Ducit Amor Patriae

Richard Herald, The Gentle Giant

The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
--- Thucydides

Bourne

C'mon, man...

That sounds more like right wing spin than the well thought out answers you always give.

Also, I'll agree with Shame Us on his summation of the Lebanese War. I think that's really the best answer one could come up with. And it also underlines my main point that there was no "clearly" to it.

smoothrideronli

I basically meant we took Iraq fairly easily but now have our handfuls with what we took. Is that really a win?

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