SerialThriller

Dallas and other cities are turning off some of their cameras because they are too effective (not enough tickets issued): Do red light cameras work too well? - Crime & courts - MSNBC.com
On the other hand, couldn't they save money by putting up dummy cameras? Then motorists would have to treat them all as active.
Some interesting points are raised for both sides in the article; and they even admit that statistics can be manipulated either way (no kidding). But I am against traffic cameras for the reasons mentioned in the court cases- only a LEO should issue citations.
Anyone think the pros outweigh the cons?

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SheepOfBlue

Or they could stop depriving us of the right to face our accuser

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ccwilli3

those red light cams cause so many accidents, especially on a 45mph+ road. People won't run them because they KNOW they will get a ticket so they SLAM on the brakes and collect the people behind them. We've got one near our house and we hear brakes lockup and tires squeal several times an hour... It's a money making scam at the expense of public safety, they don't really care if you run the light they just want some cash from you when you do.

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seamus

I'm kind of twisted on the camera issue. If you aren't speeding you don't need to slam on your brakes.

On the other hand, just like cops hiding in bushes or placing cameras within 200' of speed limit drops, they're placed to make money and not to enforce safety.

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luvtolean

Bullshit.

I'm still waiting for one I think got me recently.

If you're driving along flow of traffic, behind a semi in a small car, in an unfamiliar city, you can find yourself almost in the intersection when you see the light go yellow.

Yellows are set to all sorts of different lengths, but as soon as it goes red, the very millisecond, you're getting a ticket. So basically, a yellow light becomes a red one.

I chose to run it rather than risk a collision with locked up brakes but I was mad as hell, and it's a choice that might cost me.

Also, there is no due process with these tickets, I know people that have tried. If you're as unlucky as I've been in the past, you might have your ticket subcontracted out to another city. Also, as a marketing tactic, the camera makers show the cities how to set these fuckers up to maximize revenue, it's nothing to do with being a collision preventative.

I have a particular dislike of people who push it at intersections, but cameras are downright unsafe revenue collectors.

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ConqSoft

You were following the semi too closely.

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SheepOfBlue

Or sitting at the bottom of a mountain like the do on the way to my house

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Aychdot

There is camera at an intersection by my parents house. If you make a right on red you have to do more than come to a complete stop. According to one of the aldermen, you have to sit for 12 seconds before the camera will not take your picture. In what driving manual are you you told you have to wait that long before you can make a right turn, you just have to come to a complete stop. In this ticket writing municipality the 12 second rule is an ordanance in their lawbook and I call BS on that issue. Plus they don't take a picture of the driver just the rear plate, so how do you know who did it. It is set up as a non moving violation like a parking ticket so they don't care who has to pay it. In my oppinion if it is a moving violation give me a ticket for a moving violation "BY AN OFFICER" and let me try and fight my way out of it.

seamus

Wasn't thinking of the intersection ones, just the speed cameras. Those are the ones I've had experience with.

I believe I was agreeing with you here.

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luvtolean

Here's another article on the topic. It's a hack writing job however, there are some good facts:

Red light camera monkey business may be a national trend

It did get one wrong on the court cases though, San Diego got their program changed with a court order (also some good stats on the increase in rear enders):

Trade-off of traffic cameras? | The San Diego Union-Tribune

I saw the first interstate gatso in Cali I've noticed the other day too, out on the I-5 near Stockton.

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You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

jose_jimenez

You should see what the English do to the gatsos over there. That is what we should do

SerialThriller

I just read in the paper that our city council is looking to install some ticket cams and had to revisit this thread.
Also, check out how some teens are outsmarting the cameras to prank others: Car Crime: Maryland Teens Using Speed Cameras To Punk Enemies

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SheepOfBlue

Then they wonder why no respects them they give whores a bad name.

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asiliat

there's a red light camera a block very close to my house. I see it being triggered all teh time. People here don't slam on the brakes, they just run it.

I always think that if people looked ahead it's enough time to stop. I try to be sympathetic, but people here habitually run reds, so I'm not going to cry too much.

SheepOfBlue

I laser on the camera may adjust it some

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MSGT-R

You've got to admit the teenager scam with the paper plates is a very original idea, but the car won't match, so the ticket can be beat.

Supposedly you can lane split the sensors on a motorcycle and not trigger the camera. Anyone brave enough to test this theory?

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jose_jimenez

I don't know but I do this on my bike on our local tollway and it works. If you have a tolltag, each booth is $.70, no tolltag and it's a dollar every time you go through one (IE robbery). They decided years ago that bikes would have to pay the same rate as double axles. I found this ridiculous because we all know the weight comparison between a bike and cage, + bikes take up less room and have less impact on the conrecte (repaving, etc) but they want to charge us the same price.

MSGT-R

The toll roads in SoCal use transponders to register the fee. If you go under the sensor bridge between two cars, it doesn't know you're there (on a bike). If you screw up, it takes a pic of your license plate.

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abtech

Dayumm. Toll roads in SoCal? Holy Crap

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SheepOfBlue

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SerialThriller

With many state and local governments falling short of budget, more are openly calling tickets a source of revenue and encouraging officers to write more: Speeding? You'll pay higher 'taxes' - MSN Money

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slickwill

There was a big article on the exact same thing in the Feb. Car and Driver. They even quoted an officer as saying how much he dislikes it.

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BizJetGuy

I saw somewhere (quite a while back) that Dallas was decommissioning a large number of their cameras as they weren't generating enough revenue to even sustain them. The monitoring fees were greater than the take.

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luvtolean

Yes, and don't f with the toll road company on your bill. "She" had a client that moved or something and next thing they know are in court over tens of thousands. As soon as we realized we were moving I wanted that transponder returned and a confirmation letter before we left the area.

Also, they stage the price of the toll. My favorite is when you pay $7.00 for a ~10 mile stretch during rush hour on the 91, only to find out you're trapped in the toll lane where there has been a wreck and you're going slower than those that didn't pay.

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You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

NinerPilot

We have the red light camers here, 6 so far, and personally I dont care one way or the other. And before you jump on the "well, you're the popo" bandwagon, we are issued tickets like everyone else, even in our patrol units if we arent running lights and siren.

As far as ours go, we have an officer that reviews the still and video footage of each offense and decides whether or not a violation has occured. Our policy is that the front wheel(s) of the vehicle must enter the intersection after the light has turned red, and proceed through the intersection. If you cross the stop-block and then stop, while the camera may snap a photo, once the officer reviews the video and sees that you stopped, a citation will not be issued. There are kiosks around town where people who receive a citation may view the video and photo of the offense, and if they wish to contest it, they may set a court date in traffic court where the judge views the footage. If your vehicle gets nabbed and you arent driving it, you can sign an affidavit stating who the driver is, and they will go to them for the violation and let you go, under the premise that you understand that filing a false report is a felony....

So here we have checks and balances... You have the right to face your accuser, and it is a civil fine and no points on your record. We went through Trafficpax Traffipax - with ROBOT and Jenoptik for Traffic Safety Systems and they foot the cost of the equipment, in exchange for something like 60-75% of the revenue from them.... What it boils down to is that I dont run reds, and I rarely speed in urban settings, so personally I dont have a problem. Now if I get a citation and I did run the red light regardless of if I meant to, Ill just pay it. The violation is failure to stop for a sign or signal, not meaning or planning to stop for a sign or signal.... Kinda black and white, either you did or you didnt type thing...
Chris

luvtolean

That is such a conflict of interest it got the cameras shut down in San Diego. As well it should have.

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You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

phobe

While I think photo "law enforcement" is absolutely criminal, especially when the equipment manufacturer gets a take, here are a couple points for discussion:

Yellow lights are typically 4 seconds. You are only ticketed if your vehicle enters the intersection after the light has turned red.

Yes it's about the money, but without the cameras the municipalities would expect to raise the taxes elsewhere to make up the revenue... at least this is a tax you can choose not to pay.

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navydevildoc

Actually, Lockheed sold the systems, and they redid the maintenance contract to appease the court orders... so they turned back on Jan 1st.

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luvtolean

That explains the flashes we saw. Getting a forecast on their revenue.

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You got to know, you got to know, the winners say GO-GO-GO...I got no patience, so sick of complacence... -Rage Against the Machine

MSGT-R

Stand by, the 15 toll road in San Diego is getting the same thing. They expanded it almost to Ted Williams Pkwy, and it will be a toll for the non-carpoolers. Motorcycles are free so far, that could change in the future, just like Orange County.

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